MTFCA Forum

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 8:46 am**

Hello Forum,

I have to get into whatever is under the hogshead for a fact-finding mission. I have read up a little on the topic and had discussions with other T owners. For those who have done it both ways--removing engine or just taking off and replacing hogshead, do you have a preference? I'm into my first year of Model T ownership and although I'm no stranger to mechanical repairs my current record is not so good. I usually break three other things while fixing one issue. I'd like to see more of a 1:1 ratio, which would be a great improvement for me.

Car is a lovely '23 Touring with Z-head and strong motor. Just need to undo some previous snafus.

Thanks very much in advance, and if you have any tips on hogshead R&R I'd greatly appreciate it.

Gerrit

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 8:55 am**

Remove the engine is what I do

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 8:58 am**

Pull the engine! It's a lot easier on your back and depending on what you find you might have to pull it in any event!

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 9:01 am**

What is the suspected problem with the car?

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 9:12 am**

What’s the issue of your concern? Is the car not driving or shifting correctly, making internal noises or??
What are the snafus that was done previously?

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 9:16 am**

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑
Tue Nov 15, 2022 9:01 am
What is the suspected problem with the car?

Start with the inspection cover. Other than easy changing of bands, removing the HH doesnt give you internal transmission access. You will get a better/more complete look @ the tripple gears. Clutch/bushing/drum issues mean pulling the motor.

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 9:35 am**

speedytinc wrote: ↑
Tue Nov 15, 2022 9:16 am

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑
Tue Nov 15, 2022 9:01 am
What is the suspected problem with the car?
Start with the inspection cover. Other than easy changing of bands, removing the HH doesnt give you internal transmission access. You will get a better/more complete look @ the tripple gears. Clutch/bushing/drum issues mean pulling the motor.

As a previous poster said, what's the suspected problem? Be nice if you'd say here, we all could maybe narrow down better advice.
That said, I agree with above, start with the inspection cover, and go from there. Pulling/replacing hogshead isn't that hard, and not rocket science either. I've done it twice "in car" and not a big deal. Little tougher re-installing of course, but not horrible. It's also easier if you remove the brake and reverse pedals first and put them in after you got the hogshead back on.

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:07 am**

If you are not real familiar with a Model T engine I would suggest getting the Ford service manual and other service guides which are readily available from the parts suppliers.
You may already have them but if you don’t they are really helpful.
This is just some practical advice to to help you along the way to seeing what the supposed snafus are.

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:09 am**

Thank you for the replies.

What’s the issue of your concern? Is the car not driving or shifting correctly, making internal noises or??
What are the snafus that was done previously?

I was afraid you'd ask. On figuring out a starter bendix problem, I believe I dropped some bits and pieces into the transmission. To fish around down there I bought a cheap magnetic flex tool from HF and much to my horror it came back without the magnet. I BELIEVE on that fishing expedition I was in the trans area near the bands, with the inspection cover removed. Or I could have been going through the starter hole as I'd removed the starter.

Now I can turn the motor a little each way by hand before it snags on something--I suspect the "something" is the magnet that came off my tool. That's what I aim to find out. I will remove the starter again and see if I can get a glimpse of anything through the hole.

Since I've gotten very good advice on this forum in the past, feel free to offer more of the same. And I offer my thanks in return and will definitely keep you posted on how it goes.

Gerrit

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:24 am**

Time to buy an endoscope: https://depstech.com/products/endoscope ... iQQAvD_BwE

I have used mine in finding issues in walls, and things I could not have even predicted. I bought mine a few months ago and have used it multiple times...this one is terrific with an amazing depth of field...I highly recommend it.

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:29 am**

Things like to rest un the area between the flywheel & lower pan sump. Dragging a large rag worked for me with the HH still on.
The motor was recently re installed & I didnt want to mess up a perfect seal.
In your case, I would pull the HH if going thru the inspection cover dosent work. A small camera can be bought for $30 to find the junk.
No need to pull the motor, as far as I can see.

Yea, endoscope. I saw them on ebay that uses/interfaces with your phone screen for $30. I do like the idea of a complete unit for $70.

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:53 am**

Since there’s something that’s been dropped in the engine pull the inspection/ transmission cover and do the recommended search for it. Hopefully you can find what’s in there. Take your time and watch what your doing.
Don’t force the engine to try to turn it. Good luck.

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 11:01 am**

John

I investigated the endoscope for a phone, and you had to screw around with downloading software into the phone and all of the accompanying foolishness to get it to work...for the money, I felt the self-contained unit was the best for my needs...and a nice thing about it is since you cannot easily control the rotational orientation of the lens, on the one I bought, I could electronically "rotate" the view on the screen, plus you can take movies or photos with it. The quality of view is excellent and the price is remarkably low for what you get.

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 11:14 am**

I suspected it would be inconvenient to have to use a separate phone, so I didnt pull the trigger on the cheaper unit.
Thanks for the review. Ill go with the self contained unit. Cant beat the price.

Amazing how cheap things get over time. For years I wanted an auto dark welding helmet but they were in the $500 range. I bought one several years ago for under $70. Works great.

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 12:00 pm**

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑
Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:24 am
Time to buy an endoscope: https://depstech.com/products/endoscope ... iQQAvD_BwE

I have used mine in finding issues in walls, and things I could not have even predicted. I bought mine a few months ago and have used it multiple times...this one is terrific with an amazing depth of field...I highly recommend it.

I have that model and yes it's an incredibly useful tool with great resolution and some handy features. Your pet's lost its favorite cat or dog toy? Just send the scope under the sofa or behind the fridge. No telling what you'll find back there. It goes where no human dares. The light gives clear illumination and the lead is plenty long to reach anywhere you need to see. Sadly, it hasn't helped with my current situation. Thanks for the suggestion. Gerrit

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 1:36 pm**

Remove engine. The hogshead can be removed fairly easily with the engine in, but it is virtually impossible to replace it properly with all of the required gaskets and felt that must be aligned in order to ensure a leak free seal between the hogshead and oil pan. Be sure to remove the bendix before removing the starter, as trying to remove the starter without removing the bendix can destroy the mag coils in the vicinity of the starter hole. Jim Patrick

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 1:55 pm**

Since you can turn the engine part way and it stops, I suspect that your magnet is stuck to the magnets on the flywheel. If so, it could damage the magneto coils if you turn it. So I would strongly suggest that you pull the engine and take off the crank case. Then you can inspect the magnets all the way around and also check the condition of the magneto coils. If the coils have not been rebuilt recently, it would also be a good idea to replace them. The original insulation gets very worn out and often falls off.
And I would also suggest that you put the crankcase on a jig to check for straightness and straighten it is it needs it. A straight crankcase will lessen the possibility of main bearing wear or broken crankshaft. Then when you put everything back together place the engine nose down and see if the 4th main at the back of the transmission slides in and out easily. If it does you are ready to install the engine.
Norm

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 2:03 pm**

Norman Kling wrote: ↑
Tue Nov 15, 2022 1:55 pm
Since you can turn the engine part way and it stops, I suspect that your magnet is stuck to the magnets on the flywheel. If so, it could damage the magneto coils if you turn it. So I would strongly suggest that you pull the engine and take off the crank case. Then you can inspect the magnets all the way around and also check the condition of the magneto coils. If the coils have not been rebuilt recently, it would also be a good idea to replace them. The original insulation gets very worn out and often falls off.
And I would also suggest that you put the crankcase on a jig to check for straightness and straighten it is it needs it. A straight crankcase will lessen the possibility of main bearing wear or broken crankshaft. Then when you put everything back together place the engine nose down and see if the 4th main at the back of the transmission slides in and out easily. If it does you are ready to install the engine.
Norm

Thank you, Jim and Norman. Very helpful advice. I knew there was in issue with possibly damaging the magneto coils so I'll proceed with caution. I'll carve out a day or two that I can devote to this. Get myself mentally prepared and do some shop cleanup. Having a clean work space makes life easier. I'll check in with any progress or updates. Gerrit

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 2:52 pm**

I agree with not trying to turn the flywheel because of the possibility that something stuck to the magnets might damage the field coil. I would get the scope and see what's what, and proceed from there. If it looks like you need to remove the hogshead (and reinstall it) that's best done with the engine/transmission out of the car. Yes, you might be able to do it in the car, but just thinking of it makes my back hurt.

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 2:58 pm**

Does this have anything to do with your questions at the beginning of October regarding the bendix coming off of the starter shaft? Did you ever resolve that issue? If not, it is not something that can be remedied without the removal of the hogshead and, ideally, the transmission from the pan. Attempting to turn the transmission with a bendix in the bottom can do some major damage to the delicate mag coils. Jim Patrick

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 3:24 pm**

Having done bands in a T both ways I rather pull the motor easier on the back if you have cast iron hogs head

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 5:51 pm**

jiminbartow wrote: ↑
Tue Nov 15, 2022 2:58 pm
Does this have anything to do with your questions at the beginning of October regarding the bendix coming off of the starter shaft? Did you ever resolve that issue? If not, it is not something that can be remedied without the removal of the hogshead and, ideally, the transmission from the pan. Attempting to turn the transmission with a bendix in the bottom can do some major damage to the delicate mag coils. Jim Patrick

Yes, it's related to that issue. I have a good understanding now what I'm up against, just a matter of rolling up my sleeves and getting my hands dirty. And stoking the wood stove. It's. getting cold here in Maryland. Thanks for the advice, I'll read any and all replies. Gerrit

Posted: **Tue Nov 15, 2022 8:17 pm**

There will be several pieces to locate within the gears or magnets of the transmission. 2 bolts (f), 2 tab washers (g), 1 drive spring (d), 1 drive coupling (e) and the spiral gear assembly (a,b,c). Don’t miss anything. Jim Patrick

Posted: **Wed Nov 16, 2022 8:00 am**

Thanks, I’ll make sure all parts are accounted for.
Gerrit

Posted: **Sat Nov 19, 2022 8:21 am**

He Found Part A, as it was loose, but still on the starter shaft.

The rear bolt and washer were still among the missing the last I heard.

That was a month or two ago.

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