MTFCA Forum

Greetings all! After a recent drive my T has encouraged me to replace the valves. Since I have the head off I'd like your advice on how to clean the head and block. There is a ton of carbon on both. The block has a bunch of sludge in the coolant passages. While you're typing away, do you have any concerns around reusing the head gasket? Should I just spring for a new one? The head came right off of the block, so no tools were used to pry it apart and possibly damage the gasket. Is there any other maintenance I should be thinking of while I'm here?

Thanks for your suggestions!

Not sludge, it is rust and minerals from using tap water as coolant. Easier to address with the head still on. Drain the coolant, fill with vinegar, run the engine and let sit a few days, repeat as necessary. For the carbon, scrape with a screwdriver to remove.

This might help reduce scrubbing time

I'd not use that head gasket again, especially now replacements are available again. I would be checking the area at the back of the block and cylinder head around the large water jacket crescent to make sure there were no leaks. The deposits on the gasket may indicate that it wasn't an optimum seal at that point.

Allan from down under.

Use care when scraping carbon off combustion chamber and gasket surfaces. Do not remove any metal. I've used an old shop vac to vacuum up loosened carbon and gasket debris. Do not use a vac or electric drill around gasoline or any solvents. I'd flush any loose material out of the block and radiator with water. As for the crankcase and valve chamber area area, about all you can do is remove what you can reach, paying special attention to the areas where material could settle. I would not re-use the gasket. It's not necessary to remove every trace of carbon. It's very important not to gouge up the surfaces. It's important to get loose carbon debris out of the space between the pistons and cylinder walls. Use rags to keep as much of it out of this area as possible when cleaning carbon. When you are through removing carbon, put some oil on top each piston and rock the engiune back and forth a few degrees. That will usually bring some loose carbon up out of the space between the piston and cylinder where it can be wiped up. I'd do that several times with each cylinder until the oil pushed up the cylinder wall is free of any debris. Make absolutely sure all bolt holes are clean all the way to the bottom. Cylinder head bolts may need replacement.

This is where Scotch-Brite pads and Kerosene are your friend. Things will clean up nicely.

I position pistons below deck surface and run a bead of "caulk" using grease, around the top/OD of the pistons to catch the crud that might find its way past any rags placed into the cylinders and keep it from the rings. After cleaning everything on the deck spotless, you can remove the rags, carefully, and the bulk of the grease which if previously undisturbed will hold all of the potentially damaging corruption that got past the rags. Bring a pair of pistons "up", re-caulk, and scrape the TOPS, not down on the chamfer or into the grease...whatever is there will not bother a thing. Clean out the grease and bring the other pair to the top and repeat.

An excellent idea.

I don't know the reason for removing the head, however observing the valves it looks like the original type with the two piece heads and stems. Number 2 exhaust valve has either been removed or the head came off. Number 3 exhaust looks like it is burnt. The top of piston number 2 looks like a new piston. Did the valve break and damage the piston? So if you plan to take the engine to a machine shop, they usually have a tank for cleaning the engine. If not, you can carefully scrape the surface and run a plumber's snake through the water passages. I would also encourage replacing the freeze plugs while things are apart And also replace the rings and adjust the bearings. If the cylinders are tapered, you might also re-bore and replace the pistons. Check the rods for balance and for straightness. if the babbit is cracked or worn out, re-babbit the rods. If you do so, but should check the crankshaft and regrind if out of spec. Also check the crank for straightness and cracks. Might need a new crankshaft. Anyway, read the specs and fix everything you can find wrong and then you won't need to pull things apart so soon in the future.
Norm

Allan wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 16, 2022 9:11 am

I'd not use that head gasket again, especially now replacements are available again. I would be checking the area at the back of the block and cylinder head around the large water jacket crescent to make sure there were no leaks. The deposits on the gasket may indicate that it wasn't an optimum seal at that point.

Allan from down under.

The copper head gasket is on back order at Langs and unavailable through Snyders.

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 16, 2022 10:11 am

This is where Scotch-Brite pads and Kerosene are your friend. Things will clean up nicely.

I position pistons below deck surface and run a bead of "caulk" using grease, around the top/OD of the pistons to catch the crud that might find its way past any rags placed into the cylinders and keep it from the rings. After cleaning everything on the deck spotless, you can remove the rags, carefully, and the bulk of the grease which if previously undisturbed will hold all of the potentially damaging corruption that got past the rags. Bring a pair of pistons "up", re-caulk, and scrape the TOPS, not down on the chamfer or into the grease...whatever is there will not bother a thing. Clean out the grease and bring the other pair to the top and repeat.

I like it. Great idea.

To have the head off is a golden opportunity to take it to a machine shop, have it cleaned…beaded….and checked for true….from my experience?
I’ve never NOT had a head that didn’t need to be milled some…..IMHO!

Yes, I would re-use the head gasket. But first, put it back together, Fill radiator with Evaporust, run to temperature for 2-3 days, letting it sit in between, then drain.

I don’t know why Vinegar is pushed and recommended on this forum, it’s an old wives tale that is ineffective, stinks to high heaven and stains everything it touches.

" The deposits on the gasket may indicate that it wasn't an optimum seal",,,,,,,
Those deposits on the block and gasket look like RTV sealant used in a previous rebuild, which if correct, confirms the quotation. jb

Too much to read here for my attention span so I will only throw in my two cents here, maybe it's already been covered. Looking at that block, I'd take it in to a good engine shop and have it "tanked" as they call it, and DO NOT re use that head gasket. Good grief, they finally have new gaskets available, that one looks like crap. There's an old saying...penny wise and pound foolish. Replace it!

Won't hot tanking destroy babbit?

Pat, in theory, I believe you're correct.

that said, I have not found a shop for the last 20 years which would allow a block with babbit to even enter the tank...they knock it out. As I understand it, Babbit in solution is an entirely different disposal situation than just the hot tank effluent by itself.

Question: How did this engine perform before the valve failure? Did it show evidence of severe general wear? It clearly needs the valves replaced, but that may be enough to get a good running car.

Vinegar is very good for dissolving lime and calcium deposits which come from "hard" water, especially well water. I don't know whether or not it works on rust.
Norm

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 17, 2022 9:21 am

Won't hot tanking destroy babbit?

Possibly, but frankly maybe the whole engine should be "reworked" anyway while it's out. That way he's all done for a long time in my book. That's how I would handle it, but that's just me.

That's the ideal solution, but it's a considerable expense and investment in time and effort. If it ran OK before the valve failed, I'd refurbish the valves, clean out the pan, and put it back together and see how the whole car performs, then decide how to proceed. It would be easy to wind up with 12,000 dollars in a car that needed another 6,000 put into it to be worth 10,000.
As I understand it, the engine is still in the car, which was in driving condition until the 2 piece valve reached the end of its service life.

Use 10% vinegar. It will attack rust and aluminum oxide.

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:22 am

Question: How did this engine perform before the valve failure? Did it show evidence of severe general wear? It clearly needs the valves replaced, but that may be enough to get a good running car.

This car ran well after a fellow T'er from the club helped me adjust a few things. The big thing was replacing the coils with recently adjusted ones. The car perked right up and would go up most of the hills around here with little hesitation. Then the valve had a headache.

Edit: Correct, the engine is still in the car.

What should be done to the engine depends on how it will be driven.

If driven just around the block or to the local ice cream stand. Just fix the valve and clean passages. Try the old head gasket. Not a lot of work to change it if it leaks.

If heavily toured, Spend the big bucks if you have it. If the big bucks aren't there, take a chance, someone will trailer you home

Art Mirtes

I'm with Art,

They're an easy engine to get the head off, so if reusing the gasket doesn't work there's not a lot of time invested, and if this is as much an education for your son as anything else then it'll be a great thing for him.

Whether it works or not I think it's invaluable - learning how to be a 'bush mechanic' with few parts or tools available and figuring out what will work or not, or simply how to employ what you already have, is a great experience that could well stand him in good stead later in life.

If you do that then you're in for another flurry of suggestions as to what you do with the gasket; put it on dry, use grease, use some other compound (I was once told Marmite!) ... if it were me I might consider a thin smear of grease, and if it's a full copper gasket I might anneal it, but that's probably getting a bit carried away.

However, all that said, if this is ultimately intended to be a destination car, rather than a journey car, then perhaps do as others have said and take it to a reconditioners - or better still dismantle it yourself and take the requisite parts for machining etc.

Luke.

I don't want to jump on your forum question but I have a related question. Does the carbon build up cause a problem (other than on the valves) running the engine? I have a sweet running 1912 that has some carbon build up on the cylinders. This engine runs so well and is timed well so as to give me a free start about 75% of the time. I think the free start is caused by the carbon absorbing the priming gas. Am I all wet (so to speak).

Dick, if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Allan from down under.

If your engine runs well, leave it alone except for maintenence. You may be correct in that some carbon in the combustion chambers could help retain some gas vapor, thus improving chances for a free start, expecially after the car has sat for a while. Moderate carbon deposits will also raise compression somewhat, which could improve both fuel economy and performance at low and moderate speed. Detonation is not likely to be an issue using pump gasoline, and carbon buildup is not likely to reach the point of causing trouble if the car is handled correctly and does not burn a lot of oil. An occasional open road run of ten miles or more at 30-35 MPH will reduce combustion chamber carbon deposits in an engine that is in otherwise good condition. Most all modern gasoline is low gum and high detergency, which tends to limit carbon deposition. Quality modern oils also resist carbonization.

Can peroxide be used to clean rust from heads and water passages? I guess there could be some fume issues involved! Just curious!

I've never heard of anyone using it that way. I'd be cautious with that stuff. It's an oxygenate, and could be dangerous. I'd stick with substances and methods known to give good results.

DickC wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 17, 2022 5:22 pm

I don't want to jump on your forum question but I have a related question. Does the carbon build up cause a problem (other than on the valves) running the engine? I have a sweet running 1912 that has some carbon build up on the cylinders. This engine runs so well and is timed well so as to give me a free start about 75% of the time. I think the free start is caused by the carbon absorbing the priming gas. Am I all wet (so to speak).

Any T that's been run for a while will have carbon build-up. They're low-tech, inefficient engines. When people speak of problems with carbon, it's usually in reference to the "old days", when low grade oils & fuels could cause large accumulations of carbon that would even cause an engine to knock due to the carbon build-up hitting the cylinder head. As others have said, if the car runs nice, leave it alone. If carbon ever becomes an issue, the engine will let you know

My machine shop will not touch anything with babbit in their hot tank. I left a couple of the little divots used to hold the mains in place. That was enough to put a very thin frosting over everything in the tank. Their main concern is contamination of the parts in the tank. I was unaware of the additional disposal problem of contaminated tank contents.

Allan from down under.

Re what to do to clean crud from a block and head. Get a stiff thin braided wire about a foot long, unravel about 1 inch on one end, chuck the other in a portable drill and run the wire through the openings. Because the wire is flexible you can get into the hidden passages. Use with a shop vac to suck out the dislodged material. Then use a cleaner if you're not satisfied with the result.