Transmission Help

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Humblej
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Transmission Help

Post by Humblej » Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:10 pm

I volunteered to help an 87 year old, new model T owner, get his car running. Although I have over 50 years of experience with Model T's, I have almost zero knowledge or experience with the transmission. The problem is no neutral. With a rear wheel jacked up and the engine running the wheel is always spinning. With the engine running and pushing the clutch pedal to the mid point and stepping on the brake will stop the wheel from turning, then releasing the brake pedal and the wheel immediately starts turning. Adjusting the clutch lever bolt has not made any difference.


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Re: Transmission Help

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:23 pm

If setting clutch to mid-point and stepping on the brake stops the wheel, then you do have a "neutral" in the transmission meaning the high clutch is released (at least somewhat). Somewhere, though, is drag on either low (too tight low band? badly out-of-round low band?) or high.

telling the forum the age of the car since restoration or last known running, plus any work performed that you know of may help.
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Humblej
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Re: Transmission Help

Post by Humblej » Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:42 pm

Car is a 1920 with electric start and generator. Owner just bought the car a few months ago. Last time it was driven is unknown, probably years, perhaps decades. No prior restoration, it may have just been maintained as needed to keep it running. Hand cranking the engine with the parking brake set will make the car move, not a slight creep, but move as if in gear, that is why all the fiddling with it has been with one rear wheel jacked up. When we first got the engine running, stepping on the brake would lug down the engine and it would stall. Now applying the brake will not stall it out, that is an improvement, but I am not ready to take it off the jack stand just yet. Do clutches get stuck over time when not used?

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Re: Transmission Help

Post by babychadwick » Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:48 pm

Sounds like groves worn in the brake drum not allowing the clutch to disengage. Of course oil viscosity is another option, as is simply stuck oil on the clutch discs. i might try draining the oil and filling the motor with a couple gallons of gasoline (probably cheapest option) and letting sit a few days. Drain fill with fresh oil and see how it improves. If it doesnt help all you are out is 10 bucks or so for the gas . . .
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Re: Transmission Help

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:51 pm

Do clutches get stuck over time when not used
they sure can

you're on the right track...running, warm up, step on brake (stop wheels even if engine labors). If it really tries to heat up, I'd alternate, but if not, I'd adjust the parking brakes such that pulling on the brake handle holds the wheels when brake pedal is carefully released.

change oil, too.

you'll get there...

BTW - congratulations to the new owner and good for you helping him :)
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Re: Transmission Help

Post by Norman Kling » Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:18 pm

I would suspect the oil is too thick. Especially when the engine is cold. it should be SAE 20 or 10W30 multi grade oil. Several things can help with your problem. One is to park with the parking brake forward in the high gear position. You might need to chock the wheels if it is parked on an uneven surface. If on level it should be just fine with the parking lever forward. Then pull the brake lever back just before you crank. The reason for this is when in the high gear position, the oil is forced out from between the clutch disks. But if the lever is back in the brake position, the oil flows between the disks and as it gets thick with the coldness, it has more drag.
It sounds like it is working correctly if the wheels stop without killing the engine when you put the foot brake on or pull the parking brake on.
Norm


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Re: Transmission Help

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:06 am

I would not attempt to flush the engine/transmission with any kind of solvent. If you want to clean up the clutch plates, run the engine to get it fully warmed up and drain the crankcase oil into a clean pan. (I would examine the used oil for condition and look for any evidence of solid matter in it. Thick oil in cold weather will cause problems) Put in 3 1/2 quarts of 0 W 20 synthetic oil and again run the engine until it is fully warmed up. You will probably see a considerable improvement in the clutch/transmission behavior, and you may find that the engine is easier to start and that it runs better once started. If not, it indicates a mechanical problem or an adjustment problem in the clutch/transmission. Some clutch drag is normal in any Model T, especially in cool or cold weather. It should not prevent starting the car with the wheels on the ground, and the car should not move with the parking brake on. It should not move when in neutral with the engine running, although some slight tendency to "creep" may be noted. Model Ts do not function well with thick or dirty oil in the crankcase. The clutch, brake, and reverse pedals in a Model T normally go down to within an inch or two of the floorboard when pressed down firmly with your foot. It is NOT normal to have a high pedal like you would expect to have in a modern vehicle. Thick oil in a Model T in cold weather will cause starting problems and will cause significant clutch drag, even if the car is in perfect condition and perfect adjustment.


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Re: Transmission Help

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:16 am

Using Marvel Mystery Oil will ease cold weather starting and reduce clutch drag. Adding 10 to 20% Marvel Oil to clean 10W30 will improve cold weather performance and reduce clutch drag and help remove internal engine deposits. I would not use any additive in 0W20 or 5W20 oil. Do not use STP-type viscosity improver additives in a Model T unless you are travelling in Death Valley.

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Re: Transmission Help

Post by Mark Gregush » Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:23 am

With the wheels off the ground there can be spinning even if the car is in neutral. There is a lot of drag in the clutch disks, even more so if the oil is too thick/cold. If the engine does not labor with parking brakes on, transmission being in neutral, sounds normal to me.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Re: Transmission Help

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:31 am

From what I have read and experienced, slight drag in the clutch is normal even under the best of conditions. You can expect rear wheel movement if the engine is running with the rear wheels off the ground and the parking brake not set. In cold weather, the rear wheels may pick up considerable speed. Applying the parking brake should stop both of them, and should not load the engine more than slightly. As the engine warms up, the drag should diminish. It will never completely go away. Some drag is characteristic of all multi-disc wet clutches.


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Re: Transmission Help

Post by Altair » Sun Nov 27, 2022 12:05 pm

My 26 sat only for a few months and the clutch was stuck solid, I towed it around a city block two circuits in neutral with the engine running before it let go. I now park it with pressure on the clutch to avoid contact. There was a high-end model of Rolls - Royce that came with a 12-inch piece of wood under the seat, and it was to be used to maintain the clutch in neutral when parked. If it ever stuck, they were free and clear of any liability because you didn't apply the stick when needed.

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Re: Transmission Help

Post by Steve Jelf » Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:06 pm

Because of the clutch drag inherent in the Model T transmission I chock a couple of wheels when starting cold. On one occasion I forgot this, and it led to an exciting adventure.

IMG_0403 copy.JPG
I back the car into my shop and park it headed out. It's about two feet from the door. Outside the door is a slight decline down to ground level. On this occasion I not only forgot to chock the wheels, but also left the brake lever straight up, parking brakes off. Naturally, when I started the engine the car rolled forward. I tried to hold it back and get out of the way, but I stepped on the ramp and fell over backwards, landing on my back. Of course the car followed me down the ramp. It was stopped by my left leg. Well, here's another fine mess I've gotten myself into. I'm on the ground, on my back, with the running car's right front wheel not only pressing against my leg but more importantly with part of my pants leg under it so I can't get up. I was completely unhurt, but stuck. With clutch drag pressing the car forward, and gravity pulling it down the ramp, I was really stuck. So what to do? I got on the phone and called for a sheriff's deputy to come and shut off the engine. I stressed that I was not hurt, and in no danger, and didn't need anything but somebody to shut down the car. So of course the deputy came with an ambulance, a fire truck and about a dozen people. He turned off the ignition, and we rolled the car back into the shop.

If I hadn't had my phone? I suppose I would have been there until the engine died of overheating from running fully retarded.

I probably won't forget to chock the wheels for a cold start anytime soon.
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: Transmission Help

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:47 pm

Have you checked the adjustment of the 3 clutch fingers? I'd start there.

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Re: Transmission Help

Post by Humblej » Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:52 pm

Not sure what to check for and I absolutely do not want to be making adjustments to the fingers.


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Re: Transmission Help

Post by speedytinc » Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:21 pm

Dont make any internal adjustments yet . Confirm external clutch linkage is set per the service manual. Ran when parked, right?
You have already been able to unlock your clutch by running. Put fresh detergent oil(if not already) in & continue running with a wheel up, breaking the disks free by engaging low & reverse alternately untill you can set the parking brake & the motor keep running. The idea is to wash away that old sticky oil from the clutch plates. Get the motor good & hot. When done leave the parking brake forward to allow the oil in the clutch pack to drain. Go thru the procedure several times. You will note improvement. The cold exacerbates a sticking clutch.
Thats not to say the clutches are not sticking in notches worn into the drum, but do the easy/likely stuff first.


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Re: Transmission Help

Post by Norman Kling » Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:55 pm

Have you seen these instructions? This will get you as close to a true neutral as you can get with a Model T.
Free Neutral.jpg
After you get these instructions, push the pedal halfway down until the point where it is in neutral and adjust the bolt so that when the parking brake is on, it holds the clutch lever at the side of the transmission to the same position as the pedal holds it when the pedal is in the neutral position.
Norm

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Humblej
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Re: Transmission Help

Post by Humblej » Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:59 pm

Success! Drained the oil and poured in parts cleaner fluid. Hand cranked awhile, drained and refilled with engine oil. With a rear wheel jacked up and the engine running, worked the pedals until neutral acted normal for a T. Was able to push it out of the garage without the engine spinning and drove it around the parking lot. The owner is thrilled. Thanks for all the help.
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Re: Transmission Help

Post by Tadpole » Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:02 pm

Beautiful little coupe, I like that BIG motometer! Glad you figgurd it out.


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Re: Transmission Help

Post by Scott_Conger » Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:14 pm

Glad to hear!
So good of you to do this for the fellow. Never too late to have a happy childhood and it sounds like he's on his way!
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Re: Transmission Help

Post by speedytinc » Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:22 pm

Good deal.
Remember to leave the parking brake off when put to bed. This will keep the clutch disks from locking up, allowing for a better/best neutral for the next start.


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Re: Transmission Help

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:50 pm

Using a lightweight detergent motor oil will do the same thing as adding harsh solvents without risking damage to engine parts and gaskets. In cold weather country, 0W20 or 5W20 synthetic oil works great in a Model T. I've run synthetic 0W20 synthetic oil in a Model T in 105 degree weather at 40-45 MPH for miles on end with absolutely no issues. Multigrade synthetic oil is the best thing to ever come along for a Model T engine and transmission. Easiest starting, best clutch and band action, and best lubrication.

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Re: Transmission Help

Post by Humblej » Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:31 pm

Scott, you have no idea how close you are to the truth. This guy had a model T coupe when he was a kid in the 1950's, too young to sign the paperwork so it was in his dads name. His dad sold the car a few years later, against the wishes of the son, and that was the end of his Model T ownership. That is until, at 87 years old, he thought about finding a T like he had as a kid. He found one locally, just like how he remembered his. 1920, made in Canada, same seat cover, same wood repair to the trunk... and the bill of sale from the 1950's with his fathers name and signature! Reunited after 70 years.

He bought it a couple of months ago in non-running condition. I worked on the mechanicals and Ron P. helped with the coils and electrical, and today we were able to drive it around in the parking lot. Back in the 1950's it had a Ruckstell axle, but now it has a standard rear end that is shot. I will rebuild a rear end for him but for the effort I would prefer a better core to start with. Anyone in Northern Michigan that might have a decent small drum rear end core for a rebuild please let me know.


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Re: Transmission Help

Post by Brent Teltow » Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:54 pm

Good story, with a great ending!! Enjoy.

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