MTFCA Forum

I wonder if there are any still around?

Not a model T , but wow, fancy. They have taken the idea of an English Hansom Cab and applied it to an automobile. I don't think it will catch on.

The photos are from 1922 but I wonder if it's one of the Model T's leftover from the Great War? Does the steering box look earlier than 1922?

It also looks like they changed the hubcaps.

And a 7’ Pitman Arm !! I’ll bet they’re rare !

I can't read the script on the radiator. It looks to me like a high dollar "assembled car" with some T parts in it.

Pat may be right; the steering certainly looks "T", so does the rear axle. Apparently whatever advantage, panache or prestige the Hansom cab arrangement provided in the horse-drawn era, they were strong enough motivations to result in this unusual critter !

It looks like the passengers would have a fairly comfortable ride, but I'd think the driver would be at risk of being bucked off outright, or flung over the sides on anything but a very good road.

French Patent - FR544615DA

Application Date - 1921-12-16

Inventor - Paul Jossu

Improvements to automobile chassis. The subject of the present invention is a particular arrangement of the controls in a Ford chassis so as to make it possible to adapt thereto a cab-shaped body or any other desired body, delivery body, etc. To this end, the control devices are moved to the rear using additional levers or flexible cables.

The attached drawing shows by way of example one embodiment of a transformation system using additional levers.

The French copy no one, and no one copies the French

There is a reason for this...

Can you imagine the linkages, bellcranks, long rods, etc, required to operate that thing?
A lot of pieces of parts look model T, some I am not so sure about. The ends of the front axle, but a drop in the center? I don't know what to make of the engine pan?

J E G asked; " Does the steering box look earlier than 1922?" That basic style began in 1915, replacing the riveted two-piece gearcase with a domed top cover. The 1915 was unique with an all brass cover, and the gearcase itself changed slightly in material over the years as well as some internal changes. The top piece became steel, and a change in the outer knurling denoting the 5 to 1 ratio change beginning for 1925. However the general appearance was virtually unchanged from 1915 through 1927.

Fascinating car!

Here is an ad for the car in L'Echo des Sports on 25th November 1922:


Here is the bankruptcy notice for Paul Jossu in Le Matin on 6th November 1923:

Model T Ford, the ultimate icon of mass production and "building all alike!" Yet, so many truly unusual cars were also built based upon the Ford T model.
I wish one (or more?) of these cars could have survived intact. I would love to see one up close, drive one, ride in one.
Thanks John E G for finding and sharing this here!

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:39 pm

. . . I'd think the driver would be at risk of being bucked off outright, or flung over the sides on anything but a very good road.

I always thought the horse-drawn Hansom Cab looked precarious as all get out, difficult of balance, and torture for horse and driver. This at 5-10 mph, a steady walk up to a light trot. Ramp that up to 30mph or more ?? It would be "interesting". Perhaps this is why none seem to have survived ?

I wonder how many were built ? Likely a sad story. M'sieur Paul went from "le plus chic voitures" to bankruptcy in a single year.

One reason for putting the driver behind the coach portion of a horse drawn vehicle might be to reduce the weight carried by the horse. The weight of the driver and his acommodation would tend to lift the shafts. With the driver at the rear, the high seat was necessary to permit forward vision. In the classic chauffeur-driven cars, the passengers rode directly over the rear axle, while the chauffeur rode amidship, and doubtless enjoyed the smoothest ride.

Some carry-over of the style did occur here in the states….

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:06 am

One reason for putting the driver behind the coach portion of a horse drawn vehicle might be to reduce the weight carried by the horse. The weight of the driver and his acommodation would tend to lift the shafts. With the driver at the rear, the high seat was necessary to permit forward vision.

Um, nope. The weight borne by a draft horse is the resistance of pulling the load, and that is transferred to brisket or shoulders via collar or breast collar depending on the method of harness. "Braking" is absorbed by the horse's "thighs" by the "britchin'". Little or no weight is borne by the harness "saddle". The shafts of a single horse rig provide "steering" of front wheels through lateral movements. In the case of the two-wheeled gig or cart, the ideal is that the vehicle and its load are inherently balanced. The leverage of the shafts easily compensates for minor imbalance without stressing the saddle in either direction. This is what makes the Hansom arrangement so problematic. In many ways, the horse drawn version presents all of the "engineering" difficulties, possibilities for failure and inconvenience as M. Paul's invention when applied to an automobile.

Here's a two-wheel gig in perfect balance:

If the driver and his equipment was located ahead of the axle on a single axle passenger vehicle, his weight would be carried by both the horse and the axle. If he and his accommodation were located behind the axle, his weight would be subtracted from whatever portion of the passengers and vehicle's weight was located ahead of the axle that would be borne by the horse. A better ride for passengers can be obtained by locating passenger seating ahead of the axle. In the case of a single axle vehicle, this spares the passengers at the expense of the horse. Locating the driver behind the axle offsets the weight that would otherwise be applied to the horse in such an arrangement, while adding little, if any, to the total vehicle weight.

Yup. Balance !

Balance it is. Better quality jinkers had seats adjustable like modern cars. Not for a comfortable driving position, but to allow the driver to adjust the weight over the axle for better balance. To intimate that buggy builders in the past would build an out of balance vehicle is to ignore their design and construction skills. Of course, these skills can be severely compromised by the less than competent driver and his load.

Allan from down under.

Allan wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 04, 2022 5:40 pm

Balance it is . . . To intimate that buggy builders in the past would build an out of balance vehicle is to ignore their design and construction skills . . .

Allan from down under.

Right you are, Allan. Moreso, the Hansom's axle mounting positioned the cab even closer to the ground than the French auto version. The driver's seat was sprung as well.

On the other hand, Mr. Hansom was an architect . . .

I can't resist posting useless trivia I learned as a result of this great discussion. "Cab" is short for "cabriolet" a designation that was applied to the Hansom "cab". When the carriage became the ubiquitous form of for hire transportation in London, enterprising cabbies adapted chain-drive "taximeters" to enable a fair charge for distance traveled - hence, the term "taxicab" was born !

The vehicle would need to be properly balanced when in service. That might require that it be unbalanced when empty of driver, passengers, and any luggage or freight.

In 1890's NYC, a somewhat similar configuration of electric taxi cab was on the streets:

1890s Horse-less carriages: No one had yet figured out what an automobile ought to look like. Chassis layout was not settled. Front motor, rear motor, mid-ship motor? Electric? Gasoline? Steam? Control layout was not settled. Besides diverse chassis layout, there were no established automobile body designers or builders, so carriage makers designed and built many bodies using established methods, tools, materials, aesthetics, and configurations, and adapted them as best they could to the various motor driven chassis.

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 05, 2022 9:49 am

1890s Horse-less carriages: No one had yet figured out what an automobile ought to look like . . .

And now, in the 21st century, we know exactly what automobile should look like: UGLY !

I find the swarms of federalized, Humpty-Dumpty eggmobiles to be distinctly unattractive. Evidently, a lot of other people in this area do too. Long wheelbase, 4-door pickup trucks are the new "family sedan". The cabin area of these roomy, powerful, comfortable, and versatile vehicles is as capacious as that of a 1950 Chrysler sedan. The flaw in many of them is the presence of a huge "console" between the front seats. I find myself somewhat confined between the door and the console. Visibility, especially to the rear, is often limited. In those respects, I prefer the wide bench seat and excellent visibility offered by my 1982 Dodge W-250.

The high-set driver is better placed to be clear of the horse's toxic emissions.......

He'd probably still get some "spotting" when driving a fenderless vehicle in a major city in those days. Those blotches on the street are not oil spots. People today have no clue about how much cleaner urban areas today are than they were in the pre-automobile era. Large cities were choked with human and animal waste, packing house waste, stables, pig pens, chicken houses, smoke, ash, and general refuse. The advent of combustion power made city life much cleaner, safer, and healthier. Advances in furnace design did much to reduce smoke and fly ash, as did use of hard coal and heating oil in place of soft coal and wood. Combustion power opened the way for vast improvements in water processing and distribution as well as sewage handling. General public works could be accomplished more quickly and on a larger scale than before. Removal of rubbish was also made easier. Combustion power and mass-produced cheap steel made urban construction safer and better. Fire fighting cpability advanced rapidly. The rapid advance in the production and distribution of electric power could not have happened without combustion power.

Yes, indeedy ! We have truly made a paradise on earth, but we're still not happy.

Great photo, very interesting setup. I wouldn't trust the steering on that, though. I guess the chauffeur could bail if things went south but the passengers might be late in knowing all was not well.

Oh, I don't know, Gerrit...

Riding up front I'd think they'd be the first to know!

Here's a similar looking vehicle from 1898.

Jeantaud electric.

Chris Barker wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:47 am

The high-set driver is better placed to be clear of the horse's toxic emissions.......

Chris, I'm a horseman and a model T lover. I can't let your comment pass without offering you this challenge:

I'll lock up the barn and bed down in a vacant stall, my four horses in their respective stalls.

You bed down in your garage with the automobile of your choice idling. Close the doors, my barn doors are all closed up too.

See you in the morning ?

Whole idea of that car is just plain stupid. Couldn't pay me enough to drive that car up in the high center of gravity like that, let alone in all kinds of weather. Stupid.

...and people think parking a brass "T" in a garage with a 7' door is a problem...

I suggest that if you sleep with your T in an enclosed space that you turn off the ignition and close the gasoline valve. (Do NOT turn off horses. They can be very difficult to re-start.)