MTFCA Forum

Since the wood wheels have 6 bolts attaching the brake drum
and the wire spoke wheels have 5 what do I do for rear brakes
on my 25 pickup when I use the later wire wheels?

You'll need a bit more replacements.. like the 26-27 improved rear axle assembly with the five lug wheel drums and also if you do the front you'll need the five lug wheel bearing hubs.

The wire wheels were introduced in ‘25, and so there were small drum wire wheel drums originally. The correct wire wheel hubs are a first choice for mounting these wheels, and I would recommend you peruse this path. There are adapters available, but do not support the wheels as originally designed. Small brake drums can be drilled to match the 5 bolt mounting

Thanks
I have the hubs and wheels, front and rear. I also have the larger drums.
I can use one as a pattern when drilling the holes in the smaller drums.
I tried using model A wheels but didn't like way the adapter supported the wheel.
Does any one make small cast iron drums for the model T?
I have them on my model A.
John
1925 runabout
1915 Runabout

Ford wood wheels and Ford wire wheels are very different and the only things in common are the front wheel bearings. Ford wire wheel rear hubs are a single piece hub and brake drum, the large drum, so there is no changing the large brake drum out to a smaller drum. I do not know of there ever being a Ford wire wheel rear hub with a small brake drum as they were made for the improved Ford. If you want to use Ford wire wheels with the Ford wire wheel hubs, you will need to change out your rear axle to a large drum rear axle. There are no adapters, there are no modifications.

That's not entirely true Jeff - the large brake drums can be removed and/or replaced from the w.w. rear hubs. I've also seen small brake drums on w.w. rear hubs.

Oops, your right. I looked again and the rear hub and brake drums are two pieces not one.

Lots better brakes on the late type axle.

They were made by Ford, Check out this thread. I have only seen one pair in my travels.
https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/7 ... 1494463070

So if one had a ‘25 or earlier rear end, could you remove the brake housings an put ‘26/‘27 large brakes on the axle housings?

No....the back casting is larger diameter, brake shoes will not fit the smaller drums

Quinn,
I'm thinking it would be easier to just go with a large drum rear end since original went out the window @ this point.
Not that I'm more worried about originality than safety. As far as I'm concerned any wheel or brake improvement is OK with Me.
John,
I have to agree with you on the adapter mounting for A wheels as they where intended to be supported in two circumferences
instead of one as the T wheels are. The wood wheel adaptors to T wires afford the same support as the T hubs do ( or at least
on the front wheels. As far as the A wheel adaptors go I have run wood to A wheel adaptors for a long time on my speedster
with no issues and I drive the heck out of it! I have seen more than I would like T wire wheels on T hubs that crack.
Craig.

I contacted the manufacturer of the smaller brake drum and asked if they could drill it with only 5 holes. This was not a problem. I installed the small drums on my wire wheels and life is good. No need to change the rear axle. If the manufacturer can no longer do that, ask them to sell you a couple drums without holes and drill them yourself.

Pay no attention to the previous posts above that say it is difficult to do. I have driven the car from Milwaukee to Detroit and back twice.

" Pay no attention to the previous to posts " ...... To me sounds more like The Wizard of Oz yelling at you.. but it seems you found a solution by having new drums drilled for five wheel studs to adapt your wheels to your car. Good luck to and safe travels.

I did this 5 years ago. The flange on the hub to center the brake drum is the same size on both small drum and large drum. Transfer the holes and drill, 1 hole will line up. I found a (modern) stud with serrations and pressed the studs in. Seems to me I had .015 press fit on the serrations. The stud was Dorman brand, but I don't remember the part #.

I would suggest making every effort to be certain that all 5 holes are located accurately. Check lug nut tightness every few hundred miles, espcially if you use chrome plated lug nuts.

FYI…

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=33354

Kevin Pharis wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 10, 2022 2:27 pm

FYI…

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=33354

Good memory! Small drum wire wheel hubs for sale.... to easy a solution

Wow. The rare of the rare. OP, you better jump on these.
I cant allow myself to be a hoarder.

well I am back and confused
I bought new hub bolts (studs) from Langs and they measure .5 inch across the threaded section and .62 across the section that is swaged.
the hole in the hub is .5
The hubs had splined studs which I pressed out.
My question is do I have the wrong hubs?
should I ream the holes out to something close to .62?
I bought the whole collection from a gentleman up in Washington state.
He said that they had come off of a friends car.

Are you saying the new studs won't fit in your wire wheel hubs? Hard to believe that Lang's would sell studs for that purpose that do not fit the hubs. Are you maybe mistakenly calling the drums "hubs"? To make that work, you'll need to drill a 5 hole pattern in the drums, same diameter holes & same locations as the holes in the hubs. It may require welding shut some of the existing holes in the drums.

the studs fit the 26/27 brake drums just fine.
The rusty drums that I have may have been in an accident as the surface that mates with the hub is not
parallel with the outer edge of the drum.
I won't be using them as I have a set of early drums that I bought from Chaffins.
The problem is with the stud to hub fit.
The hubs may not be for a wire wheel T 26/27.
I may need to find a correct set of rear hubs or drill/ream the holes in the ones that I have.
If I decide to do that I need to know what the hole dimension should be?
How many thousands should it be undersized?
From the one picture you can see that the brake drum fits correctly on the hub casting (the big hole not the stud hole).

T wire wheel 5 lugs are spaced at 5”. Turn the hub over & take a picture of it. I see the back side but not the front. It appears correct on the backside, correct number of lug stud holes on the hub. If you do decide to use the small EB drums you need to know that you are placing the lug stud through the drum & into the wire wheel hub & even though swedged into the wire wheel hud & the head of the stud is flush with the back of the EB drum you will need to weld (and I mean a good weld) the head of the Lug stud so in the event you have to remove the wire wheel that the bolt doesn’t spin when trying to remove the lug nut. Ideally it would be better to form a punched lock as seen on a 26-27 wire wheel EB drum. Trust me that if those studs are not secured in a solid almost permanent fashion you will have some major issues & be in for a world of hurt if you ever have to remove the wheel. Others may have a varied opinion

Something to think about is that the 1926 style rear axel was ready for T production before the 1926 style cars were. Some late production original 1925 style closed cars came with the 1926 rear ends. Because you already have the 1926 T wire wheels and hubs the easiest thing to do is get a pair of 1926 rear housing , radius rods and brake shoes for your installation.

Think it would be best to start over. First with pictures of the hubs you purchased from the guy in Washington state. Why did they have "splined" studs?
The only thing that about the studs that matters are the diameter, length and that head does not interfere with the axle housing backing plate etc
Do the wheel hubs fit the front & rear ?

hub picture

That’s correct but the splined lug studs shoulders don’t appear deep enough. Remember they have to go through the EB drum and then the hub itself. Could be optical but I’d measure to be sure. Best John

the hubs came without the brake drum
Just the hub with the studs installed
I didn't realize that they were splined until I pressed them out
If the brake drum had been installed I wouldn't have had the problem.
The brake drum holes are .6 so the hub would have been .6

I’m talking about the depth of the splines, they need to be deep into the hub maybe even very slightly proud if your going to do that. In addition if you drill the hubs to .62 what are the splines supposed to dig into to keep them from turning in the hub? It’s supposed to be a solid press fit. Just realized you have bought what appears to be the correct lugs & won’t be using the splined lug not in the bag. Still you will need to weld as stated before because you don’t have punch locks int that small EB DRUM

The rear hubs you show look correct. I have not seen one drilled smaller with splined studs. I cant say thats correct for early 26, however, in looking @ the super rare original small drum hubs, they appear to use the larger later style studs with the flat in the drum to keep from turning. Those splined studs for smaller holes is a head scratcher.
The replacement studs do look correct.

I would consider going to later big drum axle housings/rear end. The parking breaks are terrific & can be used as a service brake.

Humblej wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:08 pm

Oops, your right. I looked again and the rear hub and brake drums are two pieces not one.

Could you please go back and edit your first post.
Thanks

When replacing studs on a T wire wheel hub, you must remove the swage by cutting it off the swage off top of stud. Must swage the new stud with a tool.
T studs do not have teeth on them. Guess is the wrong studs deformed the hole in hub. I have a homemade small drum wire wheel hud I will post pictures tomorrow if you want. Not hard to do, other than the small drums don’t have the piece to lock the side of the studs. You must weld them after you swage them.

I don't believe the rear hub you show looks like a Ford manufactured hub. That does not mean it's not meant to fit a Model T. I don't recall ever seeing one with a step in the face** of the flange.

**The face with the paint pen markings.

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 13, 2023 7:06 pm

I don't believe the rear hub you show looks like a Ford manufactured hub. That does not mean it's not meant to fit a Model T. I don't recall ever seeing one with a step in the face** of the flange.

**The face with the paint pen markings.

Interesting thought J.V.O., You made me go look.
That step cut is in the ones I have also.

Thank you to all of you for your comments and advice.
My current plan will be to
drill the hub stud holes to .622, which is the new stud diameter, minus a couple of thousands.
use the tool that I bought from Langs to remove the swaged material ,that it turned out I didn't have, to
bevel the the edge of the holes in the hub'

locate and drill the .622 holes in the small brake drums
press the stud through the brake drum and hub
swage the stud
tig weld the stud to the brake drum

Hi John,
Any chance you have a part # for the serrated studs? I found a Dorman stud that had way to much serrations for my application so I had to
turn them down and thread them farther to use model A hubs on the front of a speedster project. For those wanting to use adaptors &
model A wheels Speedway Motors sells a 5 on 5 1/2 bolt pattern to support A wheels on after market hubs that are small in the O.D. The
3 piece adaptors are large enough to support the A wheels the same as T wheels and the A wheels are stronger & cheaper than T wheels.
Thanks.
Craig