MTFCA Forum

I have been going through some crankshafts that I have collected.
I have a couple EE's and some with diamond webs.
There are also three with the EE profile that are marked Made in Canada D.
Does anyone know what material they are made from? (AA or EE composition?)
I have my own dry particle Magnaflux so I did a check on a number of crankshafts.
Of the ones that checked positively I then did a "ring" test.
The EE's had a bright high pitch ring, others a lower pitch but a nice ring.
Two were really dull. Thoughts?
I have looked back at some of the old posts on this and there is no strong consensus
other than Magnaflux before using.
Any current thoughts?
Harry Lillo
Calgary

The ring test is, for the most part, kinda worthless. Magnaflux is the real test. I've never heard of dry particle Magnflux. Gonna' have to look that up.

I also use a dry particle (iron powder) magnaflux kit.

Dry magnaflux works fine, but if you’ve ever used a wet magnaflux you won’t want to go back. Especially on a crankshaft.

Andy

Years ago I was wondering why some cranks where cracked more than others, at work they had a foundry so a spectrometer was there to use to test the metallurgy of materials. I found the EE did not have Chromium in them and the DB cranks had the most and they where almost always cracked. I did find that the Canadian cranks where the first in 23-4 that the EE formula was in? I do not know if they did it first or who did, I just had a 23 Canadian engine once and tested it. This crank shaft was the later style so it is possible it had been changed? The Diamond ones with AA markings I have seen where less chances of cracks but they are still weaker cranks. Hope this helps and as people say they will all break some time or another>??? So far I have 30,000 on an EE.

DRY MAGNAFLUX is useless on a 3 Dimensional part.
Ring test is also useless.

Only way to know for sure is to clean the crank that there is no dirt or rust on it and have it wet magnafluxed.
Doesn't matter if it's an ABCD EE crank they all will crack and there's only one way to find out.

When we had the Model T Club here I asked the very same question "RIng Test" and everyone said that's how it was done until I showed them how wrong they all were.

If you could locate a crankshaft that was not cracked, bent, or twisted, would it be a good idea to have it shot-peened or nitrided or otherwise treated?

Having been through at least a 100 non destructive aerial fire apparatus tests using Mag, ultrasonic & dye penetrant. I'm very
comfortable with dye penetrant I have seen it reveal cracks that other wise would not be found. Mag-na-flux is a real pain to
do some parts with. I have a Mag. setup but if I had to have someone test for me it would be Dye.
Craig.

Craig Leach wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 13, 2022 12:42 pm

Having been through at least a 100 non destructive aerial fire apparatus tests using Mag, ultrasonic & dye penetrant. I'm very
comfortable with dye penetrant I have seen it reveal cracks that other wise would not be found. Mag-na-flux is a real pain to
do some parts with. I have a Mag. setup but if I had to have someone test for me it would be Dye.
Craig.

By dye penetrant, do you mean the red dye that you spray on, followed by cleaning and the white developer spray, or do you mean fluorescent penetrant, (flu-pen)?

I think the advantage to mag particle is that it can detect discontinuities that are not necessarily open at the surface or are cracked but tightly shut such that liquid penetrant might not readily detect them. All of this is from my memory working as a testing technician back in the day.......hopefully I remember it correctly! But you cannot go wrong using wet magniflux on a crankshaft.

Harry
Ford utilized a "non industry standard" method to specifying nomenclature and metallurgical composition of material used to make Model T Ford cars.
If you can locate a 1924 version of "Ford Industries" it includes a long list of of these materials and these composition. Such as EE steel, A steel and Z Bronze to name just a few.
Ron Patterson

Jerry, I have not used the florescent dye yet but have used florescent dye for leak detection and it worked very well. The other dye
& powder works good.
Craig.

Thank you to all the knowledgeable responses.
I am still curious about any additional insight into the rectangular web
(similar to the EE in shape) Canadian crankshafts with the "D" marking.
This is a distinct D not a DB.
I am wondering if the Canadian crankshafts were
improved earlier than the US ones in their metallurgy
in addition to their shape?
Harry

The problem with coming up with an answer to the question is that documented info on Canada is fairly hard to come by apparently, and it seems that it is always consensus that reigns supreme on Canadian questions...

The ring test has always been a hocus-pocus of sorts...there was a valid reason for the old timers. They felt that a well forged crank without occlusions should ring like a bell...and the ones that went 'thud' had either micro cracks, or, lots of occlusions within and were not worth the time. Worked for them thru the years and prob a bunch of usable ones got trashed.

The modern day best method seems to be the fluorescent ultraviolet white spray that shows red or pink strings if there is a crack. There are certain factory's that require 100% spray check of all product output, and in at least one of these factory's they have even also developed an AI (Artificial Intelligence based) vision system to 'find' the cracks in the blacklight chamber and kick the faults off of the moving inspection line. These factory's do not even question a crack...once kicked, it's done-and sorted in bins for re-casting content on the open market.

These factories also do 100% x-ray inline also, to sort any possible occlusions. Again, no human factor, gets kicked, gets tossed.

A far cry from what Ford are known to have done in the T era. Like...the other question about new crank runout...y'all have seen the pictures of the Ford crank straightening department, right? 3 guys, an anvil and a sledge with an eyeball pass/fail. I shudder at the thought but hey...it worked for some 15 million issues...

Wandersee- Fords original metallurgist, has also been quoted as saying by the time T production was done...all of the metals used were no longer Ford specific recipes, but rather the closest now commercial grades available.

If a crank won’t ring, it is cracked. If it does, it might be cracked. I dry mag all batches of cranks I send to my grinder. He then does a more intense wet mag with a black light. Rarely he will find one will a flaw my dry mag missed. EE cranks are the same forging as all of the late cranks but a different formula steel. It is tougher and less prone to cracking but softer so more prone to wear. These I will let my grinder go to .030” undersize. All others .020” max. I do not send him anything but late cranks. The diamond web ones are scrap metal here.

For Canadian made T parts. Many forgings and stampings were made by Dominion Stamping which started making parts as a sub-supplier in 1913. In most of their parts that I have or have seen they mark them DS in an oval. But perhaps if they later did crankshafts, the D might stand for Dominion as the manufacturer.