MTFCA Forum

I have a set of wood spoke wheels that I want to paint. The spokes seem to be original 100+ years old but are in apparently good condition. I've read that "Keratex" horse hoof strengthener is good for wood. Does anybody have experience with this? Should I Keratex my spokes before I paint them?

I would stay away from it. Many times people use what they have available or left over.
Here's what it says https://keratex.net/hoof_hardener/
Keratex Hoof Hardener strengthens weak, worn and cracked hooves by improving the molecular structure of the horn itself. Equally effective in wet & dry conditions.
Prevents the horn from taking in excess moisture, making it resistant to softening and weakening in wet conditions. This results in a reduction in shoe loss and abscesses.
Keratex Hoof Hardener is not an oil or resin layer and does not seal the hoof. Hoof Hardener will ensure the treated hoof is able to breathe naturally. Moisture balance is properly maintained.
Should also be applied to the sole of the hoof to prevent bruising.

My preference is Minwax Wood hardener. Like many other similar products its a resin thinned in acetone. So it soaks into the wood and when the acetone evaporates it leaves behind the resin in the wood fibers.

The intent of using this is not just to harden the wood but to penetrate deeper into the outer layers of the wood to seal them rather than what a surface coating would do.

Apply a few coats till soaking stops (may darken wood a bit or a nice natural look), sand & paint
Minwax wood hardener https://www.minwax.com/en/products/main ... d-hardener
Urethane Vanish for a clear protective finish
https://www.minwax.com/en/products/prot ... r-urethane
https://www.minwax.com/en/products/prot ... r-urethane

I'd use the Minwax to preserve the wheels. If I planned to drive the car normally, I'd seriously consider having the wood wheels rebuilt by an expert. Automobile wheels are highly stressed when the car is in motion, and a wheel failure can be both destructive and deadly. Even low speed emergency maneuvers will put the wheels under severe stress. Wood wheels can look good and still have issues with decay at the outer spoke ends and several other issues.

Interesting. I can only offer a considered opinion: the product offers to correct a problem I've never had. Their product information goes on at length describing a complex (and patented) chemistry that claims to improve hoof wall horn by penetrating, not sealing (as a varnish would) and rebuilding the cellular structure linkage with keratin (what hooves are made of) compounds and proteins.

Bottom line, wood is not horn, and there exist several products that claim to "penetrate and harden" wooden items. If your original hickory spokes need hardening, it would be best to replace them. If the wood is sound, simply painting them is good enough.

Last, if you choose to use the hoof wall stuff, test it beforehand to make sure an application is compatible with the paint you will use.

Well I DID HAVE a lengthy dissertation on the benefits of replacing rather than changing a "topical remedy" but Rich bumped mine out at the exact same time I hit "submit". Lord this happens SO often!
So to make it short now: REPLACE EM! Bye.

I wouldn't expect the hoof preparation to be well-suited for use on wood spokes any more than I would expect one of the baldness cure preparations to be an effective wood preservative. There is a lot that can go wrong with wood wheels. I'd take no chances with them.

No, I’ve not had any experience with Keratex but you said your spokes “Are in apparently good condition”. My. Round felloe wheels on my ‘14 T are original to the car and spokes appear perfect. Before I painted them gloss black I brushed on a few applications of boiled linseed oil and denatured alcohol. 50/50 mix. Now this isn’t meant to be a ‘hardener’ but worked nicely as a ‘sealer’.

In many instances the wood appears good on the outside, while the core may be rotted by dryrot or water. In these cases, a wood preservative will not sink deep enough into the wood to provide protection. Since the entire weight of your car, you and passengers is supported by the spokes, the failure of just one spoke can cause the wheel to collapse which could cause a deadly crash. I know it is much easier to convince yourself that the spokes are good so as not to have to replace them, but it is best to be safe, rather than sorry, if you have reason to believe the wood is in poor shape. If however, you are sure they are solid and safe in that the dowels are solid and the spokes are very tight, let your conscience be your guide. Just because the wood is a century old does not necessarily make it weak or bad. If treated with care, wood can last for centuries. I am running my 1926 coupe on three of the original spoked wheels. I should point out that since I bought my T fifty two years ago in 1970, it has been garage kept and has never been wet, or driven in the rain. Until 2011, when the right front wheel showed evidence of rot and weakness, with loose spokes, an audible click when slowly rolling forward and brown powder on the rim, I ran my T on four original spoked wheels. I installed new hickory spokes and it was not really that difficult with a Regan spoke press (plans attached). I will continue to run my T on the 3 remaining original wheels until each shows evidence of failure. I shake them before each drive testing for looseness. Just make that part of your pre-drive regimen testing for looseness, clicking and brown powder on the rim and you should be safe. Jim Patrick

PS. Regarding wood preservative, I have a victorian house that is wood that is subject to rot and for the past 35 years I have performed permanent repairs to the rotten wood with wood preservative products made by Abatron (www.Abatron.com). The rotten wood can be preserved with a product called “LiquidWood”. It is a 1:1 epoxy that, when mixed forms a water thin liquid that is painted on the bare wood and soaks deep into the wood until it will accept no more. Once the wood is saturated, it will cure to a very strong, hard, solid, plastic that restores the strength of the wood and prevents further rot. Any holes are repaired and smoothed out with a product called “WoodEpox”. A 1:1 putty that when mixed becomes an easy to work putty, that cures as hard as steel and can be smoothed very nicely.

I have applied linseed oil over the years on old dried out wood including wooden wheel spokes with good success. I have tried other products but always come back to linseed oil. More than one application is usually required depending on the dryness of the wood. A common practice in the old days to tighten up dried out and loose spokes was to drive the car into a creek and let it sit for several hours. I haven't tried that but I assume it worked.

Soaking with water will tighten loose wooden wheels to a degree, assuming the wood is not sealed. Once they dry out, they will be as loose as before. They will dry out quickly under most conditions.

Is it my imagination or have I read on the forum that, if linseed oil is used, to make sure it is “boiled” linseed oil.

I recall about 20 years ago, attempting to restore a civil War era musket in which the wooden stock had shrunk and cracked from age and I decided to experiment with linseed oil. I do not believe it was boiled. Anyway, I made a long trough from 4” PVC pipe and filled it with linseed oil and put the walnut stock in the linseed oil so that it was covered. After a week of soaking, I was amazed, the wood had expanded, was smooth and the cracks had all closed tight. The stock looked like it was supposed to. When I removed it from the linseed oil, I set it aside to dry, very pleased with myself. After several weeks of drying, the cracks opened back up and the wood shrunk down to where it was before. Very disappointing. I wonder if I would have had more success had I used “boiled” linseed oil. Jim Patrick

PS. I would definitely stay away from using water to expand your loose spokes. That is a recipe for disaster.

I'm not clear on which is which, but I believe that one form of linseed oil will set very slowly when exposed to air , and the other form stays liquid. The type that sets is probably what you'd want to preserve wood with.

You'd want "boiled"

the other would be a disaster

Yes. I advised boiled linseed oil last Friday. You don’t boil regular linseed oil. You Buy boiled linseed oil at the hardware store. There’s a chemical difference between the two. If you simply brush linseed oil onto your spokes, forget about having paint or clear varnish to adhere.

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 19, 2022 3:31 pm

You'd want "boiled"

the other would be a disaster

In a past life, I sold stains, coatings and spray equipment to the cabinet and wood working industry so PLEASE read up on Linseed Oil and its FLAMMABLITY potential as well as how to deal with any rags you might use. I remember 1 fire at a local cabinet shop from rags after they used a glaze product and rags were placed in a trash barrel that normally would have been in the middle of the shop with high ceiling but was push out of the way against their lumber rack which burned up and all the saw dust off of the ceiling by the time the fire dept arrived.
Here is a good website to start:
https://thebackyardpros.com/is-linseed-oil-flammable/

Pure raw linseed oil is almost impossible ro find these days. It is a "drying oil", that is, it forms an irreversible polymer film when it combines with ambient oxygen in the air. It has been the basis of paints for all applications since classical times, and probably long before. For hundreds of years, it has been "cooked" with various resins, metal salts and other amendments to produce paints and varnishes of specific qualities. It is edible and until recently, in common use as a livestock medication. It's the same thing as "flaxseed oil" touted in health food stores.

Common hardware store "boiled linseed oil" is more properly "blown" oil. It is not actually boiled. Heated to a specific temperature, air is forced through the cauldron to impart oxidation, and siccatives, usually cobalt or other metal salts, are added to enhance drying time. (Not edible ! It will poison your impacted steer).

In the pharmacopaeia of paint materials, both are classified as a "varnish".

Well someone seems to make it but doesn't look like many carry it. The 1 gallon is available to order on line from the manufacturer. need to order 2 of them. Also seems be available on Amazon about $11 + shipping

Frank

why exactly would anyone participating in this thread want to purchase raw linseed oil?

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 19, 2022 8:05 pm

. . . why exactly would anyone participating in this thread want to purchase raw linseed oil?

Perhaps there are some on the forum who, in addition to their interest in Model T Fords, are traditional painters in oils who dabble in the arcana of compounding various painting mediums and varnishes.

So far as the Model T is concerned, them thar gas buggies could continue merrily on their respective journeys for another 114 years or more without ever coming within a hundred miles of any amount of linseed oil, raw, boiled or fricasseed.

Used intelligently and knowledgeably, it may be useful. For those expecting miracles, there's a magic hoof rebuilding nostrum for horses that will probably increase your motor's horsepower as well !

Key phrase..."this thread"

not "this forum"

I don't believe that anyone asking how to treat their "T"s wood would be glad that they had mistakenly taken anything on this thread to mean to use Raw Linseed oil.

that's all

I do not deny that it has its place in this life, but think that the vast majority of people who have ever mistakenly used raw linseed oil on a project would say that they were glad that they made that mistake and looked forward to doing it twice.

I have used boiled linseed oil on gun stocks, but not raw. The boiled linseed is rubbed on a surface with a cloth moistened in the stuff until it's nearly a dry surface and then set aside. It gives the wood a beautiful surface. I used multiple applications about once a day for several days. It makes a dandy, waterproof finish that is even paintable afterward if you wish.

The real woodworkers say they make applications once a day for a week, and then once a week for a year, and then once a year forever for a truly professional finish. The gun that I was refinishing was a Remington 22 out of the 1930's. I called the historian at Remington and asked what the original finish was. She said they used boiled linseed oil. I asked her how many coats they applied She answered, "That rifle cost $16 in 1934. How many coats do you think we put on ?"

The original finish on my gun looked fine, but was all scratched up and cracked from abuse by my grandfather. It lived in the bed of his various pickups over the years.

P.S. I was warned to never try using the raw variety.

I do a lot of restoration and renovation work on things from Victorian
homes to tools to fences, barns, and decks. I probably burn through
500-1000 gallons of linseed oil a year. You can add colorants, thin with
spirits, .... so many options to both preserve and make wood look awesome.
My rebuilt TT wheels from Stutzman got multiple applications of thinned
and blackened linseed oil to get the finish I have on them. They look
awesome and will be around long after I am gone. Any time they look
like they might need another coat or ten, it is as easy mixing up a batch
and slopping it on. Goes right over any previous applications. Easy-peasy,
AND, ... I like doing things the old school Farmer Brown way.

Your wheels will also smell correct!

The linseed oil I have used over the years is 'boiled'. The best remedy for dried out loose wooden spokes is replacing them with new spokes , not trying to preserve them.

Nobody has mentioned "double boiled linseed oil". I can't find it around here anymore. I used it on all of my wood handle tools until I could no longer find it.

Differences of linseed and double boiled linseed oil?

"Double boiled" is not a defining term when identifying painting materials. The common distinctions for linseed oil are "raw" (self explanatory) or "boiled", heated, oxygenated via forced air, and usually with unspecified drying agents added.

"Double boiled" is probably descriptive of a proprietary method by a particular company that markets its linseed oil products. Do you recall a brand name ? It's always disappointing not to be able to find a preferred product you find especially effective or useful. Perhaps others have heard of it and can point us to a source ?

So many "old fashioned" paint products have disappeared in recent years. Largely it has to do with very heavy government restrictions on paint products that contribute to carbon emissions, specifically "oil base" paints.