MTFCA Forum

Hello, I'm new to Model Ts. I have a 15 roadster that I would like to convert to electric start. I know I need starter, hogs head, ring gear or do I need a flywheel. Is it better to pull the engine or trans. I assume the battery goes in the turtle deck. Is there a step-by-step guild of how to do this? I'm also looking for a set of top bows for this car. Thanks for any advice.

Jim S

Along with the parts already mentioned, you will need a notched field coil for the magneto as well. The magneto will not be just a bolt on part, it needs to be set to the right clearances.

First, be sure your car does not already have later model parts installed. A great many of the earlier cars have later model parts and assemblies installed.

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 18, 2022 9:56 am

First, be sure your car does not already have later model parts installed. A great many of the earlier cars have later model parts and assemblies installed.

Based on his mention of needing a starter hogshead he'll at the very least need to pull off the existing one, which given ur advice I would suggest he take the hogshead off FIRST before pulling said engine, as then IF it has already been "improved" with the necessary parts it'll show right then and there, saving him the grief of pulling the engine. Agreed?

Best idea : swap the car for a 1919 or later. Less grief all told.
Preserve the integrity of a brass car for someone who can appreciate it for what it is: a 1915 time-capsule.

It's not impossible that you really don't want a model T - they are not cars in the sense of the machines you are accustomed to, and their multiple "failings" from the point of view of 21st century drivers spawn the desire for multiple "upgrades", most of which are deleterious to the preservation of an antique. Good advice from an old horseman applies here: "Don't try to make yer pony into sumpin he ain't!"

^^^^^ Rich is giving you good advice ^^^^^
Also - unless you have done the necessary
modifications before & have already
gathered the parts needed - possess
the skillset required - the necessary
tools - time - workspace …
It would most likely be cost prohibitive.

FJ

Which is worth more a 1915 engine without "upgrades" or a 1915 (or later) engine with an "electric start engine" assuming they are both equal mechanically?

Strictly from my viewpoint, If I had an orginal 1915 car, It would stay original. If you paid a good shop to properly convert an original 1915 car to electric start, between diminished value of the original 1915 car, and the substantial expense of parts and labor to do a proper job of installing an electric statring system, you'd probably spend close to the price a decent later, starter-equipped car in good running order. A non-electric T in good condition is easy to start for the most part. Modern fuel and motor oil make starting easy under most conditions. A non-starter T will outperform an identical starter-equipped car by reason of being about 100 pounds lighter and having less parasitic power loss. All that said, not everyone cares to crank start their car.

Era correct electric starter kits do exist. They bolt to the front left side of the engine and involve a change of the front pulley. Another version mounts in front of the radiator. Just some options to explore.

Does it already have a ring gear? No need to pull the HH. Pull the inspection cover & look in @ the flywheel. You will be able to see the peened brass screws & a ring gear if so equipped. If so equipped, its a simple HH change. If not, its a full on pull the motor, swap flywheel Plus magnet replacement. The original field coil may not be compatible with the later flywheel magnets, even though a starter shaft notch can be filed in.
Yes, its a pretty big deal if you dont have the ability, knowledge & experience to do it yourself. & a local cheap parts source.

You will also want to be able to recharge the battery during operation. You have a motor without a way to mount a generator. A rectifier would be needed to convert AC magneto voltage to DC to charge the battery.

Rich may be on something suggesting getting a starter equipped T.

Most 15's in my area are built up bitsas or converted to 15. If your T is a real, correct survivor, I would lean toward not converting. Even knowing that un starterizing your T is a simple hogs head replacement.

An up to snuff magneto T will easily start with a quarter turn. A stock/stockish motor is easy to turn over, even for us old guys. Maybe your efforts would be better directed to getting what you have up to snuff. FWIW

I have a 1914 touring that I restored to be as close to original as possible. That being said, I once asked about adding an electric starter to the car and I was told the best thing I could do was to find a 1920s engine that had an electric starter and swap it in. That way my original 1914 engine would remain fresh and ready to swap back in when I was ready to sell it some day. I would be able to get the maximum amount for the car when I sold it and I would be able to sell the 1920s engine with the car or separately. Besides adding brake lights and turn signals for safety I believe the early cars should be preserved as close to original as possible.

Les Schubert wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:50 pm

Era correct electric starter kits do exist. They bolt to the front left side of the engine and involve a change of the front pulley. Another version mounts in front of the radiator. Just some options to explore.

Yes & this would be a good way to go for an original survivor.
However such devices are really expensive & hard to find, and really neat.

Adding an ignition battery to the 1915 would allow easier starting under some conditions and would allow free starts.

bdtutton wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 18, 2022 1:18 pm

I have a 1914 touring that I restored to be as close to original as possible. That being said, I once asked about adding an electric starter to the car and I was told the best thing I could do was to find a 1920s engine that had an electric starter and swap it in. That way my original 1914 engine would remain fresh and ready to swap back in when I was ready to sell it some day. I would be able to get the maximum amount for the car when I sold it and I would be able to sell the 1920s engine with the car or separately. Besides adding brake lights and turn signals for safety I believe the early cars should be preserved as close to original as possible.

Actually THIS is the best "plan of attack" of all.
I'd have the engine swapped out in a day easily and "pickle" the original for when the time comes to sell the car, heck plenty of guys would still buy it with later engine in it and the original engine part of the sale.

Rich Bingham's advice is EXCELLENT and should be copied and posted at the top of every thread where someone wants to "upgrade" their car. I am not bashing anyone, of course you can do whatever you want with your own car. BUT, everyone drools, covets and pays high prices for the unmolested barn find only to take it home and "improve" it. In the process they can inadvertently destroy the very aspects that are valued most.

bdtutton wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 18, 2022 1:18 pm

I have a 1914 touring that I restored to be as close to original as possible. That being said, I once asked about adding an electric starter to the car and I was told the best thing I could do was to find a 1920s engine that had an electric starter and swap it in. That way my original 1914 engine would remain fresh and ready to swap back in when I was ready to sell it some day. I would be able to get the maximum amount for the car when I sold it and I would be able to sell the 1920s engine with the car or separately. Besides adding brake lights and turn signals for safety I believe the early cars should be preserved as close to original as possible.

I have a 14 wide track roadster. During the motor/transmission rebuild, I decided to put a starter in. I am very much into correct original, but I figured I would not need to rebuild this original motor again in my life time. I wanted to be sure of the ability to operate this T up to my death in old age. This is my wife & I's favorite T in the stable. The next care taker can replace the starter HH with the original one I put aside. Thats easier than a complete engine swap. The pan is 14 also. No harm done.
This T is not a barn find original. It has a 60's era restoration that looks ok @ 10 feet. For my own sense of originality, I painted the HH aluminum & installed correct 14 pedals. The conversion is not overly obvious from the left side under the hood & undetectable from the right side. The T starts reliably on 1/4 turn. I enjoy hand cranking, as I still have the ability. The starter option has come in handy @ those occasional intersection stalls. With the wife along, its a big deal to get out in traffic.

Anyway its another view. FWIW

JohnM wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 18, 2022 1:51 pm

Rich Bingham's advice is EXCELLENT and should be copied and posted at the top of every thread where someone wants to "upgrade" their car. I am not bashing anyone, of course you can do whatever you want with your own car. BUT, everyone drools, covets and pays high prices for the unrestored barn find only to take it home and "improve" it. In the process they can inadvertently destroy the very aspects that are valued most.

I gotta agree. leave a virgin alone.
Can you imagine the owner of the rip van winkle making ANY changes?

There is much wisdom in what Rich B. said. We have a devoted group of model T owners here, but my heart has been broken so many times I have tried to help and encourage folks with a model T. Ts aren't for everybody and those of us who have them sometimes make it look too easy to keep them going. Many aren't willing to crank, clean commutators, carburetors, fiddle with coils and so many things that it takes. I went to coffee the other day and had 3 requests to come help individuals get their Ts going. I begged off. I spent most of the summer trying to put my Ts in good shape. Some folks want a mechanic rather than advice. And they don't like the advice I give them.
I felt generous and obligated for many years but have become a grumpy old man. I am so glad to see there are so many willing to help and give of their time here on the forum. Many were generous to me back in the day.
Sorry for getting on my soap box, but adding a starter may not be the best choice.
but do what you need to do. It is your car. Advice here is cheap.

Sorry Jim if you're feeling a little on the defensive right now.... you've gotten a lot of advice but in the end it is you who must decide what to do with your car. I've owned a 1946 Aeronca Champion airplane for over 40 years and spent the first 23 years having to hand prop it to get it started.... in a word, it got old. I worked with the FAA to get approval to install a starter and never looked back.

When I bought my 1917 touring I made the decision to install a starter while the engine was being rebuilt. At my age, with a bad back and failing joints I decided having to crank the car every time I wanted to drive it was not something I wanted to do. My wife was adamant she would never do it (didn't prop the plane either.) I had my reasons for wanting a '17 and decided a starter conversion was the way to go. In the end I installed a modern WOSP 12 volt geared starter (blasphemy) powered by a small AGM battery under the back seat. I keep it charged with a John Regan Hot Shot charger that uses the magneto to charge the battery. I saved the old hogshead and will give it to the next owner when my time as the car's custodian has passed in case he/she wants to return it to original. Since the changes are primarily internal I think the character of the 1917 has been protected. I also take great satisfaction in going down the road behind the engine that was installed in the car when it was built.

FWIW - I also added disc brakes because I like to stop and don't want to depend upon the original tranny brake nor subject it to unnecessary heat and stress.

Jim...it's your car, do as you please. Of the hundreds of Model T's I've seen I can count the number of cars that are unchanged from the way they came out of the factory on the fingers of one hand. Even "back in the day" Model T owners were constantly modifying and personalizing their cars. Countless companies provided aftermarket accessories for the Model T owner (think Sears & Roebuck.)

Welcome to the hobby! Enjoy your car

To Rich Eagle: You do not have to look hard to find grumpy on this forum. But, you sir are NOT one of them! Your posts and comments are always thoughtful, courteous and helpful, not to mention entertaining and humorous. Because of you and others like you is why I come here.

Welcome to the Model T world!
The brass era cars are really neat and there are still lots ought there BUT as time went on Henry Ford began to improve Model T’s and a big deal was to have a starter equipped car in 1919.
Having a non starter T is great in some ways and other ways not so much. This a question that comes up on the forum fairly often about adding a starter so it’s nothing new.

If your T is still pretty much original I think It might be a good idea to find a nice 19-22 Model T with a starter. They are out there and those T’s have all that you need. It’s antique and will draw a crowd like most T’s do.

If your car is still in good shape you probably could come close to trading up to a newer T.

And you wouldn’t have to hand crank it. Probably the most common is a Touring in that era and the old movies used a lot of those. Good luck!

Jim

welcome to the world of Model T's and the land of endless opinion...the two are inseparable! A thick skin will get you quite a ways with this group. Ultimately, we do mean well

Tell the folks a little bit about yourself and your car!

If a Model T cannot be easily started with a pull of the crank, then something is wrong. Spinning, wind-milling, and lots of drama are great for Buster Keaton but are not necessarily a reality. If your desire is for a starter because it is hard to start, there will likely be far less work and $$ to make it start easily than install a starter. This forum is the place to solve the actual problem of difficult starting (and a starter may not be what you need).

On the other hand, If you're 87 y/o and have led a full life and need a break then that's another story entirely!

Backround will guide advice better than anything...

Yes Jim, Welcome to the model T world. My rant shows we are not always at our best. There is enough fun to be had that I have been enthralled with Model Ts since 1964. There are many ways to enjoy them, and we each have to find the best ways for ourselves. This Forum is a fantastic source of information, advice, knowledge and yes, a bit of humor.
It's nice to have you aboard.
Rich

Here's another option that has worked quite well for some guys not able to crank an engine anymore.

I read in the Horseless carriage Gazette about the use of a Torque Multiplier that is attached to a modified crank handle. A drill motor is then used to start the car. This is a relative cheap way that doesn't require any engine modifications and maybe most important barely noticeable!

Welcome to the forum Jim and congratulations on becoming a Model T owner! I have a 1913 Model T that is very authentic with the exception of turn signals, halogen lights that were adapted to the original gas lights, a battery and seat belts. These modifications were obviously made for touring / safety purposes and can be easily reversed with no adverse effects for a future owner.

When I purchased my car, I wanted a very authentic car with the original engine and all the correct equipment, so originality / authenticity is very important to me. I personally don't see why some folks have made such an issue out of adding a starter to your car. The conversion can be made without permanently altering your car and without diminishing the value of your car (in my opinion) IF you keep the original parts for a future owner. Many of the pre-16 cars (maybe even most) that I have been around have had starters added so that the aging owners can continue being involved in a hobby they love. I'm talking about cars much more expensive than most Model T's like early Pierce Arrows, Packards, Buicks, etc.

Whatever your reason is for adding a starter, do what works best for your situation. If one day I need to add a starter to my car as I get older (I'm 64), I may do that so that I can continue in the hobby that I have enjoyed since childhood.

If your car is still in good shape you probably could come close to trading up to a newer T.

That would be trading down in cost. A 1923 costs less than a 1915 in similar condition. Buying a 1919 or later costs a LOT less than buying a 1915 and converting it.

We don't know Jim's reason for contemplating this change. If it's because of back trouble or other physical impairment, that's one thing. If it's because the car is hard starting and he wants to make it turn over faster, that's quite another. A Model T should spring to life with one or two easy pulls of the crank. Getting it in shape to start the way it's supposed to is likely to cost a lot less work and money than converting it to a starter car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pv6HWWOGYA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pbp6B4u6kPc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5ycpdfIjDo

Excuse if repeat.

The current issue of the https://hcca.org/gazette has an article on using a heavy duty cordless drill and converter to make pre-1916 non electric starter cars easier to start.

Remember new folks there are a fair number of pre-1916/17 cars with out any mechanical starter.

I know a couple of long time Model T'ers who have suffered serious injury when cranking their cars. We also used to have a one-armed pilot at our airport who messed up hand propping his aircraft..... There are lots of reasons for wanting a starter and safety is one of them.

I have a plain-jane black car but have thought it would be great to have a 1914 or earlier brass car. If that day ever comes it will get a starter if it doesn't have one, likewise demountable wheels, auxiliary brakes and brake lights, etc. I'd keep the original parts for the next guy but would freely make such changes as I deemed necessary to have a safe and reliable touring car. I don't need a garage queen.... if I own a car I want to drive it.

Jim has a 15 he wants to drive....why should we tell him to go buy a newer car and "save" the 15?

He should do what he wants. He should also be made aware of alternatives that may not have occurred to him.

I appreciate all the advice. I'm more then capable of cranking the engine. I think I need to get the car started it has been sitting since 2000. This is the first T that I have owned, I have never driven one either. I own several old cars, in the teens. I'm working on a 27 Buick Strander'd Touring. II should have it ready to go spring touring by the middle of January if the parts all show up soon. Then I will turn my attention to the Model T. As of now the starter is out. I was thinking if I needed parts this would be a good time to start looking for them to keep the projects flowing.
Thanks again Jim S

Jim,

You've certainly had a lot of replies to your post! You'll find there are certain subjects that will elicit multiple/diverse views, starters being one of them

Far be it for me to offer the assistance of someone else, but while Model T's are simple they're also quite different from most other cars ... As I see there are a few forum members within a reasonable distance to you, so perhaps whenever you're ready to try starting your car it might be worth seeing if one or more of them might be persuaded to call over? It'd be a good mutual day 'project', and one in which someone who had T experience could be quite valuable.

Luke (who is certainly too far away to help, but would willingly do so if he could).

I’m rebuilding the engine for my 1913 and adding flywheel, ring gear, starter and later hogshead. It’s easy to remove the starter and hogshead and install the original aluminum hogshead back on later. I’m not getting younger and having electric start is in my opinion not hurting the value. I’m no purist and want to enjoy life and my cars as I age gracefully!

Joe, I did the same thing when I pieced together my 1917 shooting brake. I used a virgin ring gear on a TT truck flywheel, plus all the little used transmission. I also fitted a starter equipped hogshead, even though i had the correct one on hand. So far I have not added the starter. I figure sometime down the track I might appreciate having an electric starter, or at least whomever is the next caretaker will appreciate my forethought.

The fellow who bought my 1915 speedster wanted it converted to electric start when he turned 75. He sent me the motor for the conversion. To my surprise, I had also fitted it with a starter flywheel, something I had completely forgotten. In the end, it didn't save much time, as the transmission had t be torn down to replace a cracked first gear drum.

Allan from down under.