MTFCA Forum

Hi all. I was recently faced with the task of shimming some loose spokes on my scrappy 1921 Touring.

After unsuccessfully trawling the local hardware or auto parts stores for anything that was large enough and thin enough for the task, I turned to my box of aircraft hardware and pulled out a bunch of AN960-1016L washers.



... which I then snipped...



... and slid in-between the spoke and the felloe.



As you can see, they are an absolutely perfect fit in both inner and outer diameter and the thickness (1/32") was spot on for my application (if you need to fill more gap, washer AN960-1016 (drop the 'L') is thicker, at 1/16")*

Many thanks to MTFCA member Ron Horton for the exceptionally generous loan of his spoke jack.

* this all said, I do not condone shimming the spokes on your car. I don't know what I'm doing. It is both stupid and dangerous. Buy new wheels.

Good solution. I found these on Ebay a few years ago, they are 1/32" thick stainless steel.

James,
Do you fly?

"* this all said, I do not condone shimming the spokes on your car. I don't know what I'm doing. It is both stupid and dangerous. Buy new wheels."

I love this disclaimer!

That disclaimer will be offered as legal statement to prevent litigation when the wheel collapses and a personal injury results. Don't ever drive that deathwagon near any of my family/friends/enemies, PLEASE. And Merry Christmas

WARNING! DO NOT EAT WASHERS! ALWAYS CONSULT YOUR DOCTOR OR HEALTHCARE PROVIDER BEFORE EATING ANYTHING!

I use Chevy valve spring shims, you can get them in .015 and .030 and then cut them with tin snips. If you live in a dry climate, perfectly good wheels can dry and get loose. As long as your spokes are in good condition there is nothing stupid or unsafe about shimming loose spokes.

The install process picture shows the spoke jack on a complete wheel/rim/tire. There is less strain & possible damage to components if you remove or at least loosen the rim away from the wheel.
I did this process on a sedan 30 years ago. The wheels are still tight under the most harshest service.
The correct shim job requires shims added in pairs on opposite to each other spokes. Not all 12 spokes need be done. if 2 or 4 or 6 shims get all the spokes tight, you are done. Of course the spokes must be solid, including the tenons. Rotted wood cant be fixed safely.

speedytinc wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 24, 2022 1:03 pm

The install process picture shows the spoke jack on a complete wheel/rim/tire. There is less strain & possible damage to components if you remove or at least loosen the rim away from the wheel.

Genius. Yes, good call. And on the valve spring shims as an alternate option.

BUSHMIKE wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 24, 2022 9:15 am

James,
Do you fly?

I have an RV-6, although these washers were from something I can't recall.

An RV-6!! Very nice!
I have the pleasure of working at Van's, and it is nice to know that other forum members share
an interest in the RV series and Model Ts.

There is bound to be some stashes of these laying around. Most of mine are odd sizes. I make my own from 16 or 22 gauge. They need no slot as I use them in wood felloe wheels that I disassemble. As always, BE Cautious of Shimming or Rebuilding Wheels. New wheels from the Wheelwrights are the Best Insurance against Catastrophe.

I am ceaselessly amazed by people making science out of doing the wrong
thing, just to be cheap. I know, bad stuff only happens to OTHER people !
Having a set of wheels rebuilt is not that expensive. Certainly not, when
weighed against the cost of serious injuries, surgeries, rehab, or pushing
one's grandkid around in a wheelchair, because of a shortcut taken, all for
the sake of being a cheapskate.

Thanks Brent

Rajo23 wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 24, 2022 8:00 pm

An RV-6!! Very nice!
I have the pleasure of working at Van's, and it is nice to know that other forum members share
an interest in the RV series and Model Ts.

Nice coincidence! I'm a huge RV fan. Started with a -4, and then bought and recommissioned my current one, an O-360 CS -6, after it had sat abandoned in a hangar near Sacramento for 20 years. I've flown it all over the country - Oshkosh, Kill Devil Hill, down the Hudson River and over the Statue of Liberty and east coast to west coast in one day. 200mph cruise, glass panel and autopilot with coupled approaches, four hours usable on board and the ability to go upside down if you want. I don't think the RV lineup can be beat.

If you check out your company calendar for 2023, Greg put it in as the photo for September.

OK, end thread drift! Back to shims and how we're all stupid, irresponsible cheapskates.

RV’s and Model T’s…..there’s opposite ends of the speed spectrum! I fly a sedate 1940 Taylorcraft Model B.

While I respect James for all of the research and work he did to find the perfect sized washer for this application and share his findings with us, I do not believe this is a safe practice. In order for the wheel to remain perfectly centered, the shims must be placed on all of the spokes. If you go to that much trouble to remove the spokes, you might as well install new spokes. Jim Patrick

And if you use those split washer shims and spoke jack, you've loosened the tenon in the felloe and the bearing surface between the crescent washer on the spoke end is reduced to about 75% of full contact. The spoke is 'tight', but the tenon is loose and the endgrain of the old wood spoke is subjected to 133% of the original compression stress. Please don't drive near any of my family with this car. jb

It is asking for trouble. I have sacrificed my safety to ride on shimmed and tightened wheels. (3 cars) The failures will be reported with my obituary when the time comes. In the meantime, others should not try this. I have refrained from posting "how to" pictures of the process. It breaks my heart.
There are thousands of Ts with such wheels out there unbeknown to owners that will fail at any moment. In many cases we can't tell the difference. It is not the recommended practice it was for 70 years. Disregard old articles by old fools that are not with us anymore.
Consider the safety of your loved ones and friends.
I BEG of you.
Rich

Shimming can be a temporary fix - rebuilding the wheel is the only true solution. Before putting a lot of effort into shimming be sure to examine the state of the tenons. If they are rotted or eroded, the wheels are dangerous, shimmed or not. The attached photos show a dangerously eroded tenon and what they are supposed to look like. One mistake people with new wheels make is forgetting to seal or paint the tenon where it protrudes thru the wheel felloe. To my fellow Model T aviators - taken over Michigan's Saginaw Bay

Huh, I wonder if the number of Model T owners that are also pilots is statistically higher than the average car owner?

We also have a number of Vans aircraft here (110 when I look at the register) and I have friends who are nuts about them, although I've never flown one myself. Just as with old Fords I prefer old aeroplanes, and with apologies for the thread drift (and rubbish photo) here's two, one I flew more extensively than the other:


Luke.

Update - I ran the shimmed wheels for a while, then the spokes worked loose once again.

So I bought a set of new rebuilt wheels from a Dinosbunny on this forum. They were red, so I sanded and repainted them with black enamel and put them on the car. I've yet to drive them but they look really good.

I also dialed an inch of toe-in out of the steering and set it to 1/4" factory spec.

Next on the list is to rebuild the body, or find another touring body (or maybe just the wood)? to replace this one with.



I also made sure the old wheels were never going back on a car. I wonder how old those spokes were.

Well, everyone has a different opinion.


(whispers) "Jim, I will pay you $20 to drive your car around a bunch of MY relatives! Some of these guys are really attached to their relations, but me, not so much."

UH!!......UM!.......What I meant to say is "Yeah, that's really unsafe!"

(whispers again) "Now, you just hold up a minute, while I go tell them relatives that I think I saw some beers laying out on the road!"

Burger in Spokane wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 24, 2022 8:55 pm

Having a set of wheels rebuilt is not that expensive.

When we discuss wheel with detachable rims I agree. You can get fine new spokes from the vendors and John Regans wheel press is an easy build,
But are we talking fixed rim wheels we need to engage with a real wheelwright, and they may still be available in the US (partly due to the Amish people as I understand it) and fairly shipping options within the lower 48 states, but in Europe this may be quite a challenge. Shipping wheels to Stutzmans from Europe is prohibitive expensive even by surface. There may be wheelwrights in Europe, but shipping between states in Europe even with EU is rather expensive for large objects as wheels and I am uncertain if I can find one in Denmark or even local.

So stating it's not expensive - well - that depends - a lot.

My 0,02$