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Sarikatime
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Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by Sarikatime » Sat Jan 21, 2023 11:27 am

In the past 3 years I have had this awful smell coming from the bathroom îsink, spent several thousand dollars to have professionals figure out the culprit but no results. Had the city sewer in the street, under the house camera examined several times by different plumbers, replaced all the pipes as far as I can reach, opened the walls and disassembled the vanity cabinet, used every chemical including muriatic acid and less stronger, and the smell still keeps coming. The smell is like a skunk or worse, but it is very strong one day and not the next day, some days it even stops for several days. Tried everything humanly possible but I thought I would ask you on the forum, that has a bigger audience, maybe someone has had such a problem in the past. Sorry. It is stupid to say it, but we feel we have a ghost in the house due to some strange happenings from time to time but that is ridiculous. We had the house built nine years ago on undeveloped land away from development in the past, there wasn’t even streets before. We are at our Witt’s end, ready to sell and move on but we like the house and location too much to give up.
Anyone with ideas would be greatly appreciated. I know this should be in the off topic section but not many read that part of the website.
Sincerely
Frank Seress
Prescott, Arizona


TXGOAT2
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Re: Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sat Jan 21, 2023 11:42 am

WARNING! I AM NOT A PLUMBER, AND NEITHER IS MY DOG!
Sewer odors are often caused by problems with the drain "trap" which is a u-shaped section in the drain pipe near the appliance. It is supposed to retain water in the "U" which acts to block gases from the sewer line from reaching the home interior. The traps work in conjunction with vent pipes which usually pass upward and through the roof of the house. The vent pipes prevent build- up of pressure (or vacuum) in the sewer line from causing sewer gasses to bubble through the traps and into the home, and they also prevent any syphoning effect from water moving down the pipes from syphoning the traps dry, which will allow gases into the house. A poorly designed vent system, or any appliance with a clogged vent, can cause sewer gas to defeat the trap or traps and get into the house from time to time. In some cases, a very windy day can cause water to be sucked out of one or more traps. A clogged or inadequate vent can also cause slow drains. This can mimic a clogged drain pipe, but cleaning the pipes will not cure the problem if it is a clogged vent. A good plumber should be able to locate your problem and correct it. If any appliances that have a drain have been added to the system since it was originally built, or any bathrooms have been added, be sure the plumber knows about it.


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Re: Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by Norman Kling » Sat Jan 21, 2023 11:48 am

Have you had COVID? Some have said one of the long term symptoms is a loss of sense of smell. I have had a very poor sense of smell since I was a boy. Fell on my face when riding a tricycle I think my nose had been broken. Also had some bad flu or other diseases as a boy. Anyway, sometimes I smell things which are real. Strangely when I do smell, usually come down with a cold in a few days! Sometimes I smell something which does not smell good at all when no one else smells anything. Anyway, ask others if they smell it too. Be sure it really is something before you tear anything else apart.
Norm


TXGOAT2
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Re: Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sat Jan 21, 2023 11:58 am

If the problem is limited to one sink, that indicates a problem with that part of the system. If it is a bathroom sink, the problem could be related to the sink, or the fumes could come from both the sink and the toilet. Closing the sink drain will probably not eliminate it as the source of the fumes, since most all bathroom sinks have an overflow up under the rim, which will not have any kind of stopper. Most bathrooms have one or more vent pipe outlets on the roof over the bathroom area. On 2 story homes, the vent system may be more complex, and the presence of any appliances with drains on the second floor may introduce issues from eitrher clogged vents or partially clogged pipes. If any plans or blueprints of the house and the systems exist, they could be very helpful to a plumber attempting to diagnose a problem that has resisted solution.

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aDave
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Re: Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by aDave » Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:09 pm

Re: Norm's post...do others smell the stink that you do? If so, it is real.
Is there a basement? Does the drain penetrate a concrete slab?....You built on undeveloped land...any possibility that the land was used as a "dump" of some kind, and that whatever containers have contained a contaminant have finally corroded enough to allow noxious fumes to penetrate your structure? Any other place in the house that you detect that unpleasant aroma?
Away from development....that means that there are no neighbors - possibly experiencing similar smells?
I forget where, but a few years ago the national new carried reports of houses built on "landfills" AKA "dumps". I believe that the end result was not nice. I do hope you have a better outcome.
Good Luck,
Dave

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TRDxB2
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Re: Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by TRDxB2 » Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:13 pm

Pat & I are on the same thought
The are several possibilities. My first thought is that it is NOT from your drainage system since its been gone through by you and plumbers, but the on/off smell still makes it a possibility. Now you may have tried all these things
The drainage system is supposed to be vented to the outside and the "trap" under the sink to prevent sewer odors from cumming up through the sink by it being filled with water above he U to act like a seal. Now the question is if for some reason that water level is not being kept high enough in the trap to prevent the gases from cumming out. So when you get the smell turn on the faucet enough to fill the trap (or if you have a probe look to see if there is water in the trap high enough ). Give the room a chance to clear - now if the smell is gone then the question is what is sucking the water out of the trap. Make sure the outside vent isn't clogged by a bird, varmint,or bee's nest. That would cause the drainage system to react like a vacuum when a filled sink, bathtub was emptied or toilet flushed.
--
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The other possibility is the water itself. Here there are several possibilities city water vs well water. Another possibility is that most all water heaters have an anode rod to prevent corrosion. When these deteriorate to a point that some are known to cause a sulfide smell. So how old is the water heater?
Last edited by TRDxB2 on Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by Moxie26 » Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:14 pm

If it's the sink, tub, or toilet,.. use a toilet plunger of a bigger capacity to clear the line it may take 5 minutes it may take 10 minutes but differences and pressure may clear out your traps and your lines and flush through with clean water. I don't have a license for anything except driving a car, and that includes plumbing..... Huh ???


Dan McEachern
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Re: Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by Dan McEachern » Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:19 pm

Regardless, the p trap should prevent any sewer gasses or odor from coming up the drain pipe. Have you tried dumping some bleach in the drain when the odor appears?


JohnM
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Re: Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by JohnM » Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:20 pm

You wrote, "it smells like a skunk" well if it quacks like a .......... :)

Walk around outside looking for openings to the crawl space and attic areas. I'm not sure about skunks, but raccoons are notorious for taking up residence in a warm cozy space in homes and their latrines are not that far away.

Also rodents can have their final resting place somewhere in a wall or crawl space smelling strongest when the humidity is high.


TXGOAT2
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Re: Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:33 pm

P traps can fail to function properly for the reasons outlined above. The problem often comes and goes, depending on a number of factors. The odor of sewer gas can vary widely, even from day to day, due to the various soaps, detergents, scents, water conditioners, waste, use of garbage disposals, dishwashers, washing machines, bleaches, drain chemicals, etc. Appliances that pump water into the system, like dishwashers, disposals,, and washing machines, can provoke both overpressure and vacuum problems when a clogged vent exists. Flushing a toilet can also cause both overpressure and vacuum problems in a system that is not venting properly.


Scott_Conger
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Re: Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:58 pm

My cabin has had a horrid smell in the kitchen periodically and stops for days and then restarts. The kitchen ceiling is 2 stories tall, with the upper portion being a wall to the upper loft. We determined that it was directly related to wind direction. The roof is steeply pitched and when the wind blew from the West, it apparently "piled up" against the roofline and created pressure in the pipe, forcing the odor into the wall/house. For other reasons, I had to open up the wall. While inspecting, I accidentally discovered that the vent stack was at one point, two sections, joined (illegally) with a rubber boot inside the wall. The boot had failed, and thus, we got sewer/skunk smells in the wall (detected from the kitchen below) and now also found the reason for the dripdripdrip we'd here during our one or two annual heavy rain storms or occasionally in the winter (snow cones grow on the vent and drop back into the vent when it is -30F and then warms up). It was impossible to section in a PVC sleeve the way things were configured, so made a custom boot out of PSA rubber sheet (wrapped twice), sealed with Geosil sealant and clamped (like originally) with two pipe clamps. Since the wall is tongue and groove and took a long time to get the first board out (plus the others) I made 1 board easily removable next time, and the rest are minimally secured now rather than with a million and one air-gun nails.

I am strongly suspicious that you have a failure of the vent stack within your wall as it lines up well with my symptoms. You should be able to have a plumber run a camera down from the roof and see what is going on.

Finally, we get HUGE winds here. Enough pressure changes in our vent system that water in the toilet bowls will heave up and down at peak gusts occur. As dry as it is, occasionally, some of the lesser used fixtures will have the "P" traps evaporate enough that the blowing wind will be heard from those fixtures along with, of course, foul odors. Once a month, we will pour a pot of water down all seldom-used drains to stay ahead of this phenomena and we now rarely have odor problems due to it.

Two separate issues, but the same result: PHEW!

location of broken rubber coupling:
IMG_20220602_093753_1CS.jpg
IMG_20220602_091909_1CS.jpg
Last edited by Scott_Conger on Sat Jan 21, 2023 1:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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DickC
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Re: Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by DickC » Sat Jan 21, 2023 1:24 pm

I would check the drain vent for the sink first, if that is the way your system is plumbed. I have seen vent pipes plugged by acorns deposited for later use. If you don't have a vent pipe through the roof I would check the studor valve next to the sink.


jiminbartow
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Re: Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by jiminbartow » Sat Jan 21, 2023 1:58 pm

Yes. Since, with a properly installed p-trap below the drain, no smell could be coming from the sewer unless the water is leaking out the p-trap, so it stands to reason that, somehow, the water blocking the smell is leaking out of the p-traps or has evaporated. The smell could be coming from the vent pipes above the sewer pipes but it still cannot be detected through the drains if the p-traps are doing their job. It is possible there is a dead rat in the vent stack going out the roof. A rat could have been trying to enter the house through the vent stack and became stuck, but regardless of whether the smell is coming in from the sewer or the vent stack, my recommendation is to check your p-traps and replace them if necessary as well as snake the vent stack. If the house you smell these smells in is not in use, and the sinks and toilets are used so seldom as to allow the water in the p-traps to evaporate, allowing in the sewer gases, the remedy is to go in occassionally and run the water in all the sinks and bath tub and flush the toilets, to refill the p-traps with a blocking layer of water. Jim Patrick

PS. Screens over the roof vents will prevent rodents from trying to enter.

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Art M
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Re: Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by Art M » Sat Jan 21, 2023 2:00 pm

Check for noise. Invented sink drains will gurgle at the end of draining

Art Mirtes


Art M
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Re: Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by Art M » Sat Jan 21, 2023 2:00 pm

No vented drains


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Re: Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by Dallas Landers » Sat Jan 21, 2023 2:11 pm

Im thinking Scott is onto something. Wind on a roof can pressurise the vent pipe. The vanity sink usually has an 1-1/4 trap that could be blown open if conditions are right.


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Re: Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by jiminbartow » Sat Jan 21, 2023 2:31 pm

If excessive wind is a problem, you can install a directional roof vent cap equipped with a wind vane that will allow the air intake opening to revolve so that it is always pointing away from the incoming wind direction. Jim Patrick

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Sarikatime
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Re: Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by Sarikatime » Sat Jan 21, 2023 4:46 pm

Wow, thank you guys. I didn’t expect such a huge response but there is a lot of information there. I was a general contractor most my life but this stumped me. Thank you for all ideas.
The smell is more than three years old.
The house was built nine years ago with building permits and up to date building codes.
A camera has been in the pipes from top from bottom from inside and out.
Opened the walls, replaced pipes and traps.
The smell is there wether the wind is blowing or not.
Poured everything in to clean the pipes that you can think of.
There is a flapper to prevent sewage and smell from coming back from the street plus I am 15 feet above the street level.
One of the plumbers pulled the toilets and filled the lines below the slab but no leaks.
Don’t have a basement ( concrete slab ) or an attic, single story structure.
Checked with the city, it was not a dump in the old days. Big trees before grading.
It gives me a migraine by morning since I am on a Cpap and oxygen machine during the night.
It was suggested to put a “U” shaped pipe on the end of the pipe coming out of the roof with a wind dampener which I did just now. Home Depot is happy me spending so much on plumbing. Will see if it helps by tomorrow afternoon.
Thank you everyone.
Frank Seress


TXGOAT2
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Re: Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sat Jan 21, 2023 4:52 pm

The problem has a cause, and a cure. It being an intermittent problem, and not responsive to pouring stuff down the drains, etc, I'd look very closely at the entire vent arrangement. Your problem appears to fit the range of issues that a partly clogged or undersized or improperly placed vent stack, or stacks can cause. If you have a good drop to the street main, an inadequate or clogged vent or vents could easily cause all water to be syphoned from one or more traps from time to time. /// Any time you notice the odor, try running about a quart of water down the fixture drains in that area to be sure the traps are filled. If there is a toilet near the affected area, run some water in each fixture in the area a few minutes after flushing the toilet. That may prevent the problem, but it won't cure it.
Last edited by TXGOAT2 on Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.


TXGOAT2
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Re: Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:23 pm

The only thing keeping noxious fumes out of the house is water retained in the traps at each fixture. The traps cannot function reliably if there is a situation where either pressure or vacuum can develop in the drain pipe system. Pressure will cause gas to bubble through the traps into the house, and vacuum will pull the water out of the traps, which will also allow fumes into the house. Venting problems can lead to pressure or vacuum in the system, or both.

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aDave
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Re: Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by aDave » Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:01 pm

plus I am 15 feet above the street level.quote]....

I retract the "dump" issue, and lean strongly to the "flushing" of the toilet causing a large amount of water going downslope sucking out the water in one of your smaller p traps....the sink closest to the toilet, perhaps. A 15' dropcould /i produce a very nice suction!
Vent issue is now my vote.
Dave


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Re: Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by tdump » Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:05 pm

We are on a well here and when we had to replace our water heater,it was a very short time until the house had a terrible smell and the hot water smelled horrible.
Turns out there was some kind of rod in the tank that , a anode or something,that reacted to stuff in the water.sawed the rod off and put the plug back in, a few days later,gone smell.

But in this case,I wouldn't rule out a crack in the concrete slab and a leaking pipe.moisture down,fumes up.
If you can't help em, don't hinder em'


TXGOAT2
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Re: Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:14 pm

If the odor problem is limited to one bathroom, there is a possibility that the wax ring that seals the toilet fixture to the floor and to the sewer pipe is leaking. This usually won't cause any visible fluid leak or flushing issue, but it would be located below the bowl trap level in the toilet fixture, and thus it could allow fumes to seep into the house.


jiminbartow
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Re: Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by jiminbartow » Sat Jan 21, 2023 9:34 pm

Are your drainage pipes PVC or cast iron. If cast iron, is it possible that the cast iron has cracked inside the wall, or a lead joint or rubber joint boot has separated or failed allowing sewage gasses to enter the house around where the drain pipe goes through the wall under the sink? The cast iron could have been cracked by being hit with a nail that missed the stud. PVC is harder to break, but it can be done. Also, the plumber who installed the vent could have neglected to apply PVC cement to the joint and it could have separated. A camera lowered down through the roof stack might be able to see if this is the case. If the problem is the water being siphoned out of the P-trap, it is possible that the U of the p-trap might be too shallow and getting deeper p-traps might be the remedy for this phenomenon wherever it occurs. Jim Patrick

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Re: Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by PAZ » Sun Jan 22, 2023 12:52 pm

As a well aged retired master plumber, I offer you this solution to FIND the source of the smell. The peppermint test, which i am sure not to many plumbers know about. Pour a 2 ounce bottle of peppermint extract down the vent and you will be surprised how that smell ( peppermint ) will enter the room and you will easily be able to tell which fixture is the culprit,
The first time i tried this test, was in a bathroom area that smelled sewer gas. The peppermint smell came from around the toilet immediately . It was a wall hung toilet that had a faulty seal ( wax ring ). it had enough seal on the sides and bottom but on the very top it did not and because it didn't leak during a flush, other plumbers said it was NOT the toilet. It was and we got lots of referrals from that customer. Back in the day, there was no code, and this was probably the only test they had to check for a odor. Now days they require a 5 pound air test to hold for 15 minutes. Hence i doubt if you will find a plumber who knows about this old test that actually works!!!!!! Honestly i had my doubts until the first time i tried it, you will too. Hope this helps, Dennis


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Re: Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by MichaelPawelek » Sun Jan 22, 2023 1:09 pm

Our water well water has deteriorated over the years, smells terrible, and I have to replace the anodes in our water heaters every 3 years as they are consumed and no longer there in the heater tanks. Even with new anodes the water had a slight smell. On the advice of a neighbor I replaced the static anode rods with electric rods and within a day all smell went away. They only use about $1.50 in electricity a year. They are spendy but are guaranteed for 20 years. This one made in Canada is the best.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01H4 ... =UTF8&th=1

PS- All hot water heaters need a good sacrificial anode inside even if your water is ok. They help preserve the useful age of the heater by preventing scale build up and pinhole leaks from electrolysis.
Last edited by MichaelPawelek on Sun Jan 22, 2023 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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TRDxB2
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Re: Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by TRDxB2 » Sun Jan 22, 2023 1:14 pm

Sarikatime wrote:
Sat Jan 21, 2023 4:46 pm
........
There is a flapper to prevent sewage and smell from coming back from the street plus I am 15 feet above the street level.
........
Frank Seress
What kind of flapper is it and where is it located? And how have you ruled it out as not being part of the problem.
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger


Topic author
Sarikatime
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Re: Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by Sarikatime » Mon Jan 23, 2023 8:22 am

Frank, the one way flapper is in the four inch clean out pipe about five feet from the house, it is to prevent sewage from backing up from the street that is about seventy feet from the house and about fifteen feet lower. The vanity sink drain that has the smell is the first connection to the drain about two feet in from the foundation. This drain is a combination drain with the huge jacuzzi style bathtub without jets which is getting water in the trap often but in the nine years we have lived in the house never sat in the tub. The other vanity sink is connected from the opposite side close to the first one but each have their own vent through the roof. The shower is a nother seven feet away and so is the toilet. The main sewer comes in on the side of the house and goes straight through to the other side catching the other two bathrooms and the kitchen. The smell has been moderate in the last couple days and this morning nothing. It is 21 degrees outside and the snow melted from the storm a couple days ago. There has been some wind off and on, but the wind here is coming one minute from the south west and two hours later from the north and back and forth like a whirlwind all year long. Very frustrating.


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Re: Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Jan 23, 2023 9:38 am

In cold weather, moist air rising through the vents could form frost in the portion of the vent pipe above the roof. Insulating that portion of the vents would prevent that. Snow accumulating around the vent outlets could cause issues.

If the flapper device is somehow restricting the free flow of sewage, flushing a toilet or operating a washing machine might cause the line to "burp" back through one or more traps due to a rapidly rising level of fluid in the line. The 15' drop might prevent actual backup, but some pressurization could still occur.

Adding an additional vent near where the line exits the house might solve your problem. Some sewer systems have lift pumps that operate intermittently. Such a pump could cause water to rise suddenly in the system and cause an unusual back pressure surge on your line, especially if the flapper was not functioning properly, which might briefly push gas through one or more traps.
Last edited by TXGOAT2 on Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by ModelTGal » Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:05 am

We also had this problem. Intermittent smells in 1 bathroom. P traps all fine, etc.

Plumber came out and replaced the wax seal for the toilet and no more odors!

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Re: Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by TRDxB2 » Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:50 am

Sarikatime wrote:
Mon Jan 23, 2023 8:22 am
Frank, the one way flapper is in the four inch clean out pipe about five feet from the house, it is to prevent sewage from backing up from the street that is about seventy feet from the house and about fifteen feet lower. The vanity sink drain that has the smell is the first connection to the drain about two feet in from the foundation. This drain is a combination drain with the huge jacuzzi style bathtub without jets which is getting water in the trap often but in the nine years we have lived in the house never sat in the tub. The other vanity sink is connected from the opposite side close to the first one but each have their own vent through the roof. The shower is a nother seven feet away and so is the toilet. The main sewer comes in on the side of the house and goes straight through to the other side catching the other two bathrooms and the kitchen. The smell has been moderate in the last couple days and this morning nothing. It is 21 degrees outside and the snow melted from the storm a couple days ago. There has been some wind off and on, but the wind here is coming one minute from the south west and two hours later from the north and back and forth like a whirlwind all year long. Very frustrating.
You probably did this already but just in case. Kind of process of elimination to the origin of the odor
Every day for a week pour some water in the jacuzzi & vanity sink to make sure that U trap is filled. If you get the smell then I doubt if its the drain system. Based on your prior efforts can we assume you have a new wax ring? There are several designs wax ring, wax ring with rubber funnel. Had my bathroom remodeled and the plumber did it the old fashioned way to seal and keep the toilet from rocking all in one step. Made a volcano out of plumbers putty and set the stool down on top of it. Have a tile floor

I bought one of these to check for gas leaks (put in a new hot water heater), also use on propane tank for the grill. Good for natural gas, propane, butane and methane Would expect methane to be the smell Got it at Home Depot. Might be able to pin point the source
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Re: Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by John Codman » Sun Jan 29, 2023 10:18 am

I vote for a venting issue.

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Re: Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Sun Jan 29, 2023 10:38 am

Occasional problem. One location only. I'm betting on a venting problem that's pulling enough water out of the sink trap to cause fumes to enter the house. This "sucking" issue has been discussed on This Old House a number of times. Improper vent and a large volume of water, perhaps from the toilet, causes this action and it might not happen every time. As Sherlock said when all options have been examined what's left is the answer.
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Re: Need help, off topic, please read.

Post by mtntee20 » Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:46 pm

If it is a vent/p-trap problem, this procedure may be an easy test. Take plastic shrink wrap (Saran wrap) or that stick-on carpet liner stuff. Stretch it over the sink to seal the top of the sink completely. Use some tape to seal around the drain stopper actuator on the drain linkage where it enters the drain pipe under the sink. Watch the plastic wrap on the top of the sink from time to time. If the wrap "swells" or "sinks" you will know there is adequate pressure within the sink drain and/or the vent to empty the p-trap. If this procedure eliminates the smell, you will know the smell is from the sink. This procedure will NOT work on a toilet, as was brought up; the wax seal between the drain and drain pipe will not be sealed off during the test. If there is, and remains to be, water in the toilet bowl, you will be sure the toilet trap is working as that water IS the seal, but the wax ring may still be leaking. I have seen where two wax rings were stacked up, then the toilet was set to ensure the seal was made and kept.

As was suggested above, are there skunks in the area? The second house North of ours, had a skunk family living under their front porch, resulting in skunk smell in the basement.

Good Luck

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