Ignition Timing Indicator with LED - Video Review
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Topic author - Posts: 52
- Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:35 am
- First Name: Jarrod
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Ignition Timing Indicator with LED - Video Review
Even though Steve Jelf created some great directions on setting your Model T timing over at https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG97.html,
I thought I would splurge on the Timing Indicator with LED kit that the vendors supply. It is supposed to make it easy to find the 15 degrees ATDC.
Video Review Link: https://youtu.be/98gcL8GggiY
Let me know your thoughts here or in the comment section of the video!
I thought I would splurge on the Timing Indicator with LED kit that the vendors supply. It is supposed to make it easy to find the 15 degrees ATDC.
Video Review Link: https://youtu.be/98gcL8GggiY
Let me know your thoughts here or in the comment section of the video!
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Re: Ignition Timing Indicator with LED - Video Review
Excellent presentation and explanation, excellent video.
I see Steve has weighed in in the video comments section. He has a point, but personally, I find the exact position of the pin is somewhat difficult to observe, and that method gives an estimate of piston location whereas the indicator provides a direct measurement of piston location. Is the convenience and accuracy of the indicator worth the price? Personally, I think it is, but Steve has driven many thousands of miles in his T, timed with the horizontal pin method. He's also enjoyed many 'free' cucumber sandwiches from all the money he's saved. YMMV
I see Steve has weighed in in the video comments section. He has a point, but personally, I find the exact position of the pin is somewhat difficult to observe, and that method gives an estimate of piston location whereas the indicator provides a direct measurement of piston location. Is the convenience and accuracy of the indicator worth the price? Personally, I think it is, but Steve has driven many thousands of miles in his T, timed with the horizontal pin method. He's also enjoyed many 'free' cucumber sandwiches from all the money he's saved. YMMV
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Re: Ignition Timing Indicator with LED - Video Review
I use the the horizontal pin position also, ever since John Regan taught me that way back in 2013. Works great. My '13 will almost always stsrt cold on 1st or 2nd yank after the customary priming, and that's if she doesn't happen to free staet anyway.
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Re: Ignition Timing Indicator with LED - Video Review
First, is the linkage from the spark lever to the timer 100% slop-free?
Second, if you are driving on battery, the timing is 100% variable and it is up to the driver to keep the spark at the razor's edge of exactly where it needs to be for the RPM of the motor (with no instrumentation, just seat-of-the-pants feel)
if you are driving on magneto, there are large ranges of spark lever movement where nothing advances as there are only 3-4 "nodes" or positions of the lever where spark can possibly happen due to the design of the magneto itself
so, excruciatingly precise timing is useful if there are no parts of the linkage that have excess movement AND you are running on battery AND possess super-human sensation in your butt to feel the proper advance/power combination...and if driving on MAG it is hard NOT to have the spark lever in the correct position when driving; it's either right or or it's over-heating or it's knocking. I am not advocating for careless set-up or anything which may imperil the car or your arm...simply stating that "precise" timing gains the operator nothing in performance.
with respect to safe cranking, if timing is set with the crank pin rotated visually 9:30/3:30 more or less, you're going to be fine. That "more or less" will be quite a range on the LED tool and there is no reason to worry about it.
there is zero improvement in "perfect" timing and there is no detectable difference or risk for being 3-4 degrees plus/minus the ideal position (and that is a whopping visual difference from 9:30/3:30 crank pin location)
using aids for super-precise timing will make you sleep better but it won't make the car run better. Given that high radiator cars can be somewhat difficult to see the crank pin, I think the timing aid is a helpful tool in that instance, but again, understand what it is telling you and don't set yourself up to be a slave to it's reading(s).
on the other hand that time and effort spent actually taking all of the slop out of the linkage will yield benefits in spades. "Perfectly" timed cars with sloppy linkage have broken many arms due to never knowing where the spark lever is going to leave the timer each time, or when it finally starts advancing it.
So long as the fully retarded timer produces a spark AFTER the piston starts it's downward movement (crankpin obviously past perfectly horizontal), pretty much anywhere before compression is lost (within reason), you're fine. I seem to recall that if you use the FORD timer tool with a FORD timer, the timer ends up being set at about 5 degrees ATDC.
Second, if you are driving on battery, the timing is 100% variable and it is up to the driver to keep the spark at the razor's edge of exactly where it needs to be for the RPM of the motor (with no instrumentation, just seat-of-the-pants feel)
if you are driving on magneto, there are large ranges of spark lever movement where nothing advances as there are only 3-4 "nodes" or positions of the lever where spark can possibly happen due to the design of the magneto itself
so, excruciatingly precise timing is useful if there are no parts of the linkage that have excess movement AND you are running on battery AND possess super-human sensation in your butt to feel the proper advance/power combination...and if driving on MAG it is hard NOT to have the spark lever in the correct position when driving; it's either right or or it's over-heating or it's knocking. I am not advocating for careless set-up or anything which may imperil the car or your arm...simply stating that "precise" timing gains the operator nothing in performance.
with respect to safe cranking, if timing is set with the crank pin rotated visually 9:30/3:30 more or less, you're going to be fine. That "more or less" will be quite a range on the LED tool and there is no reason to worry about it.
there is zero improvement in "perfect" timing and there is no detectable difference or risk for being 3-4 degrees plus/minus the ideal position (and that is a whopping visual difference from 9:30/3:30 crank pin location)
using aids for super-precise timing will make you sleep better but it won't make the car run better. Given that high radiator cars can be somewhat difficult to see the crank pin, I think the timing aid is a helpful tool in that instance, but again, understand what it is telling you and don't set yourself up to be a slave to it's reading(s).
on the other hand that time and effort spent actually taking all of the slop out of the linkage will yield benefits in spades. "Perfectly" timed cars with sloppy linkage have broken many arms due to never knowing where the spark lever is going to leave the timer each time, or when it finally starts advancing it.
So long as the fully retarded timer produces a spark AFTER the piston starts it's downward movement (crankpin obviously past perfectly horizontal), pretty much anywhere before compression is lost (within reason), you're fine. I seem to recall that if you use the FORD timer tool with a FORD timer, the timer ends up being set at about 5 degrees ATDC.
Scott Conger
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
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Re: Ignition Timing Indicator with LED - Video Review
As long as you get it to spark shortly AFTER the piston reaches top dead center on the compression stroke you are fine if you are running stock ignition. Anything with automatic advance would be more critical to get the exact spot. On magneto, you will find several (usually 3) positions where it changes timing. Find the center of each position with the spark lever and it runs fine. With battery, it varies with any movement of the spark lever like a Model A does.
Norm
Norm
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Topic author - Posts: 52
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Re: Ignition Timing Indicator with LED - Video Review
Thank you!
Yes this tool is not "needed", which is why I said I splurged and I was curious on how it worked.
And I think we can all agree that over complicating a Model T is possible, but this was a fun experiment, and I was willing to spend the money to try it,
Yes this tool is not "needed", which is why I said I splurged and I was curious on how it worked.
And I think we can all agree that over complicating a Model T is possible, but this was a fun experiment, and I was willing to spend the money to try it,
jab35 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:51 amExcellent presentation and explanation, excellent video.
I see Steve has weighed in in the video comments section. He has a point, but personally, I find the exact position of the pin is somewhat difficult to observe, and that method gives an estimate of piston location whereas the indicator provides a direct measurement of piston location. Is the convenience and accuracy of the indicator worth the price? Personally, I think it is, but Steve has driven many thousands of miles in his T, timed with the horizontal pin method. He's also enjoyed many 'free' cucumber sandwiches from all the money he's saved. YMMV
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Topic author - Posts: 52
- Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:35 am
- First Name: Jarrod
- Last Name: Williams
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 Touring with electric starter, low radiator
- Location: Cincinnati OH
- MTFCA Number: 51326
- Contact:
Re: Ignition Timing Indicator with LED - Video Review
I agree the pin position technic works great.
I almost always prime the engine with 4 pulls, and then she always starts right up.
I almost always prime the engine with 4 pulls, and then she always starts right up.