MTFCA Forum

Thanks for the heads up, Tom. I love to see these things.
Here is a link: https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=affb5a66 ... lZC8&ntb=1

New open car model?

Does anyone want to wager a Guess at the ending amount ?

Someone sent me these pics a few minutes ago...

The plate behind the carb with 4 screws is a crack repair I would think, but what about the brass plate near where a generator would be on a later unit?
that is the oldest and strangest T I have ever saw that much detail in photos.
1 of the few 2 lever models that was not factory modified to 3 pedals

I think Rob Heyen needs to fly over there and git this 1 while the gitten is good.

This was offered for sale on our very own Classified Forum once and maybe twice as I recall. Too bad no one scooped it up then...would have been far cheaper than what it will likely fetch now.

The frame appears to have heavy corrosion.

Here a few photos of the coils I rebuild some time ago for that frame.
For me the price of the rebuild frame was far over my budget.

Andre
Belgium

DustySpokes wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:15 pm

Does anyone want to wager a Guess at the ending amount ?

No one's guessed yet so I'll toss my hat in the ring! Maybe $25K?

$27,800.00

Tom was that the sale price or your guess? I just looked up their website and they're estimating a whopping €40,000 - €60,000!
Roughly $43K to $65K. Unreal!

Looks like it may have had a catastrophic failure on 1 or 2 cylinder but that could be repaired for around 3 or 4 k. I believe a member posted some picture of an early block that was broken into pieces and repaired. Maybe in Australia or New Zealand? Such a neat piece of history. I wish I had the means, I’ve got deep pockets but nothings in them, ha.

As Scott said it was posted on our forum a while back, I tried to find it but couldn’t. I can’t remember his asking price though.

JTT3 wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:41 am

Looks like it may have had a catastrophic failure on 1 or 2 cylinder but that could be repaired for around 3 or 4 k. I believe a member posted some picture of an early block that was broken into pieces and repaired. Maybe in Australia or New Zealand? Such a neat piece of history. I wish I had the means, I’ve got deep pockets but nothings in them, ha.

John you gotta SELL some of that stuff you been buying!

I love the patchwork!
Andre, how wonderful that you have worked on this car!

What number is it?

: ^ )

KWTownsend wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:27 am

I love the patchwork!
Andre, how wonderful that you have worked on this car!

What number is it?

: ^ )

It's number 489.

JTT3 wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:41 am

Looks like it may have had a catastrophic failure on 1 or 2 cylinder but that could be repaired for around 3 or 4 k. I believe a member posted some picture of an early block that was broken into pieces and repaired. Maybe in Australia or New Zealand? Such a neat piece of history. I wish I had the means, I’ve got deep pockets but nothings in them, ha.

There has been no block failure, just some butchering. Looks very much like the side of the block was milled flat and 4 tapped holes added, presumably to mount a magneto. With the timing gear pocket cut away, (and now patched with that brass cover), the magneto could be driven off of the timing gear.

Jerry....what do you make of similar 4 driver side screws?

In early Decembre the owner contact me to rebuild the coils for his 1909 model T.
After a few mails he told me the car was January 1909 and has the engine numbre 489.

I have never seen the car live, only on pictures.
I know the engine was rebuild by "Doctor T" from the Sedan area in France.

Just what I have as informations

Andre
Belgium

It was December 2020.

Oh yehhhh...good eye Scott! Gotta wonder like John said...catastrophic cylinder failure? If so, this thing ain't worth no €43,000 or up!!

I estimate that it will bring around 80,000.

I’d be surprised if it even hit the reserve. I’d say 30k tops.

I can't help but wonder what happened to the rest of it?
Not even a hood!~

Jerry you may be right on the milling but I don’t understand the 2 divots below the number pad. Here’s an enlargement of the area from another picture. I think you’d still be in the 2k neighborhood to repair the timing gear area. Just talking with a few folks in the UK, I think it’s going to make the estimate but who knows. They just don’t become available hardly ever.
That said there’s a lot of juice to add on when the hammer hits. I think high bid was around 32k but may not have sold if you added the juice another 10k on top. Wonder if there will be a buyer post auction.

Well, I guess it must be tomorrow today

Anyone know what this went for? 671 (a complete running car), lives not that far from here, next time I see the owner I expect he'd be interested to hear.

Thanks, Luke.

This was one of the first posts by Brice on #489

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/322425.html

I attempted to visit Brice when we were in Switzerland last year but it didn't work out.

Chris

You can watch auction live here:

https://live.bonhams.com/live-auction-mobile/4-7RZ7KJ

It started at 28k euros, with an expectation of 40-60k euros, it ended at 30k euros which is 32k usd high bid. I was close. It was a neat and rare chassis, but when you do the math concerning building a car around it, it got expensive fast.

Got there just in time. 30K euros. Item passed.
Didnt make reserve or start #??

$32,712.00 no sale.

JTT3 wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:50 pm

Jerry you may be right on the milling but I don’t understand the 2 divots below the number pad. Here’s an enlargement of the area from another picture. I think you’d still be in the 2k neighborhood to repair the timing gear area. Just talking with a few folks in the UK, I think it’s going to make the estimate but who knows. They just don’t become available hardly ever.
That said there’s a lot of juice to add on when the hammer hits. I think high bid was around 32k but may not have sold if you added the juice another 10k on top. Wonder if there will be a buyer post auction.

I'm not seeing 2 divots. I do see 2 dark stains?

Anyway, from the link above, 489 with its mag still attached...

These are the divots, I guess maybe made for the magneto to fit.

JTT3 wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:55 pm

These are the divots, I guess maybe made for the magneto to fit.

I think those are just dark stains.

Genuinely sorry to learn this did not sell. Lot of challenges here, but would not be the first time when some determined enthusiast took charge...nothing showing in the photos that cannot be restored. Somebody with the capital and the stones will eventually take this on.

Jerry perhaps but look at the boss where the cam bearing lock bolt goes, it appears to be squared off on the left side. Not that it really matters, just spitballing here. I would have loved to have found it. I don’t know but I bet it was acquired for a more than reasonable price which is great for the current owner!

I thouight it would go for much more.

The earliest Ts had the serial number located in between the intake and exhaust manifolds. I'm puzzled why this engine has the serial no. on a pad behind the timing gear which was a later location. Attached is a photo of the serial no. location on Model T #326 in the Seal Cove Museum.

dllr28bl wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:05 pm

...Attached is a photo of the serial no. location on Model T #326 in the Seal Cove Museum.

Serial # a little more legible...

The encyclopedia might not have it completely correct as seen by the higher number on the Seal cove museum block but the first 309 are like that and from 310 on the boss behind cam gear, so it states.

I don't believe anyone really knows when the serial number changed to the boss behind the timing gear. There are no invoices on the early 1909 cars until car number 1119. It further muddy the issue, there are a number of reproduction blocks that have made there way into cars over the years. I would have guessed the high bid on Brice's car to be around 35k. I hope he can make a deal with someone who will continue on with his project.

Thanks Kim. I’ve looked at the photos as closely as I could on this device, and not seen what I can discern as a “fishplate” generally thought to be on the first 2500 cars (memory?). Has anyone noticed if they are on/in these frame rails?

Maybe I’ve answered my own question:

Hey there Rob!
The pictures don't clearly show much about the fishplate. However, on my screen there are a couple photos showing rivets from the outside that otherwise shouldn't be there. When I first looked at the photos two days ago, I thought it likely does have the fishplate frame. That of course is not a certainty! Someone in the chassis' past could have altered it? I have never seen a fishplate frame up close myself. However, a couple I have seen good pictures of had rivets in pattern of some sort, and I don't see that pattern in these photos.
Were the fishplate frames done alike? I don't know.
Also, for whatever it is worth? The blowup you posted is pixelating badly. It does appear to have the fishplate inside the far frame rail. There appears to be a shadow under the edge of the plate.

One observation. That frame looks to be severely pitted by deep rust! I would be concerned about its strength. Considering it appears to be an early fishplate frame which was significantly thinner than the common frames for most of the brass era and beyond? Deep rust would be far more damaging to the frames ability to support a body and passengers than severe rust would be on a later frame.

Does rarity come before condition when pricing an antique chassis? Yes I know it’s a 09 but it seems whoever restored it would have filled the pits and etc and put a better paint job on the chassis. It sure seems it was painted with spray cans. It looks good from 20-30 feet away. But what do I know. And it is an 09 2 lever.

Fish plate rivets?

When the first Model T was shipped on October 1, 1908 there were numerous flaws that needed attention. Ford was making design changes to the Model T at a rapid pace as production expanded. This was particularly true of the motor. Somewhere between motor number 400 and 500 several changes were made to the cylinder block.

Externally, the size of the breather pipe was increased in diameter from the original 1/2 inch pipe size to improve air flow within the engine. At the same time a serial number pad was added just behind the large timing gear pocket. The new motor number location made reading the number much easier.

There were also internal changes to the cylinder block casting that are not visible from the outside. In particular the wall of the casting above the rear main bearing was made heavier, and two holes in the rear wall were eliminated.

Numerous other changes in the cars design were made during the car’s first eight months of production, and it really did not stabilize until after the first 2500 cars were built.

Finding two identical cars amongst the first 2500 might be difficult.

Respectfully Submitted,

Trent Boggess

I'd think building a correct, high point 1909 car from mostly thin air would be very difficult. I'd also think what you'd have when done would be a reproduction, and not a car that was mostly 1909 production.

Rob, here’s a picture of my frame in the same general area showing the same rivets that secure the fish plate.

Kim, all,
Thanks. I saw the rivet heads and the shadow where the fishplate resides. I’ve never had the opportunity to see an early frame up close and personal.
Cheers,
Rob

In reference to what John kuehn mentioned about filling the rust pits,I think that may be worse than leaving them.Whoever buys this will be able to see the issues and determine for themselves what action to take.BUT had someone came along with some T in a can and smeared and sanded it on there and applied a shiny coat of 2 stage bright red,most of us may miss it and then be driving down the road and wonder why our car bowed down in the middle.
When I did my TT dump truck my friend encouraged me to fill the pits to make the chassis slick and shiny. I am not happy with the long term results as the stuff lets go of the paint when the frame flexs.
So my pickup,has no filler on the frame, nor does my 26 speedster project,yes you will see pits,but the paint will probably stay on there!

there are at least two early 1909 T that were built up from parts. One is the "famous number 2" by Donald B Hess. There are numerous questions about that T. The frame is a later one (1913). The engine does not checkout as being that early. The other one is number 1001. That T is mostl;y correct, but has a later frame. There was another one that was built around an engine years ago and probably several others,. There are several original ones around, with at least two or more two level ones.

I am thinking that when Brice originally found the parts of the car, it was just the engine. It might have been in Sweden; I could be wrong. I think he might have bought the frame from someone like Lang's to start putting the car together, again I might be wrong.

Herb, I think he found it near the border between France and Switzerland. Or maybe the Italian border, can’t remember either.

Herb & Kim, from Brice's original post.

My engine number is 489. I don't have the body.

I bought the parts 1 month ago at the border of France and Switzerland. So I don't know if the car was French or Swiss.


The pictures show the frame with engine, trans & rear axle.

Okay, so this is THAT car! I remember the early postings about when it was found in that region. And subsequent threads about his restoring it back to a chassis. I do also remember the photos of the engine with the magneto on its side.
I was saddened when he posted that he could not continue with the project. I never heard the reasons, really none of my business. Having "been there done that" with a few too many cars myself, I felt badly for him.

I do hope someone can get this, and continue bringing the car back. Sadly, it can never be a "restored from original survivor" car. And I would worry about that frame. I would love to know more about all the borderline "real" 1909s. But I also understand that many of the owners don't really want some of that information let out there!
There are only so many 1909s that survived mostly intact to be restored since World War 2. And that number is not likely to grow. I don't much care what owners say about their cars for shows and displays, as long as they are honest about how much of the car is original to that car when it comes time to sell it. From the standpoint of preserving historic artifacts, knowing what is or isn't original to a car helps to understand the rapid changes being made during that year!
Several of the 1909s extant are in fact reassemblies, several, mostly from correct original era parts. As long as some reasonable effort is made to put the car authentically into its correct original timeframe? I am all for it! Important pieces should be kept in good presentable condition to be seen and studied. How else can people get a feel for the times long past.

Best wishes to its future owner!

I know it's been asked but is there a non controversy complete 2 lever out there?

Charlie B in N.J. wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 04, 2023 10:47 am

I know it's been asked but is there a non controversy complete 2 lever out there?

No. Ford didn't make any if those apparently.

Here is a photo of a barn find 2 lever T that’s in an older Ford restoration handbook. Supposedly it went to the Henry Ford museum ? Not sure about that. And is there controversy about this one? Probably so. But it does look to me from the pic that it’s in its original as found condition. Seems like it pretty much 80% original and complete. But the pic was taken in the 50’s so I guess we’ll never know for sure.

Lots of T people have seen this by now and opinions are surely varied!

Is there any earlier pictures of barn find 09 2 levers out there ?

The HF wouldn’t let a 2 lever go I would think.

you might be shocked at what museums including HF auction off

in 1982, among other things, they auctioned off some of Ford's early experimental engines (that the museum apparently felt had no special significance): https://www.hemmings.com/stories/2020/0 ... ord-oddity

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 05, 2023 4:23 pm

you might be shocked at what museums including HF auction off

in 1982, among other things, they auctioned off some of Ford's early experimental engines (that the museum apparently felt had no special significance): https://www.hemmings.com/stories/2020/0 ... ord-oddity

Right!

My buddy and I now jointly own 2 of them, currently on display at the Piquette Plant Museum. The "removable head" NRS engine, which was a test engine to see if a removable head would be viable for the yet-to-be designed Model T engine, and a pre-production mock-up of a Model N engine.

Jerry

so glad that they were saved from oblivion and are being displayed and respected as the important historical pieces that they are

Bravo to you and your friend!

and thank you for sharing that fact