Obsolete obsolescence

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules

Topic author
Rich P. Bingham
Posts: 1376
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:24 am
First Name: Rich
Last Name: Bingham
Location: Blackfoot, Idaho
Board Member Since: 2015

Obsolete obsolescence

Post by Rich P. Bingham » Mon Feb 06, 2023 6:33 pm

I suppose it's a moot point now that cotton linings of any quality are unavailable generally, but I wonder how many who felt they performed poorly followed the directions in the Ford "bible" suggesting to soak them in neatsfoot oil overnight before installing ? I did this 60 years ago and couldn't fault them. Installing the "questionable" last issue Scandinavia linings in my current Lizzie when she adopted me six years ago, again I soaked them as suggested. They're still giving good service.

Fair question, does the passing of Scandinavia bands mean kevlar will be the only option in coming years ? I don't hear much about wood linings lately.
Get a horse !


Mike Royster
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:47 pm
First Name: Michael
Last Name: Royster
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 Runabout 1916 Runabout
Location: Shelby NC
MTFCA Life Member: YES

Re: Obsolete obsolescence

Post by Mike Royster » Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:50 pm

I've been running Kevlar since 2007 on my 16 Runabout with no issues. If you drive and stop "normal" they are fine. If you drive and stop "hard" it could result with some issues. I like mine.

User avatar

Bill Robinson
Posts: 302
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:24 pm
First Name: Bill
Last Name: Robinson
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '21 Depot Hack, '25 Touring Car, '26 Roadster Pickup, '27 Tudor, & another '27 Tudor
Location: Salty Bottom, ALABAMA AL
MTFCA Number: 22487
MTFCI Number: 17887
Board Member Since: 1999
Contact:

Re: Obsolete obsolescence

Post by Bill Robinson » Mon Feb 06, 2023 8:56 pm

You know why you don't hear much about wood linings? Everybody who has the likes them. I run both Kevlar and wood linings. No problems. But, I do run auxiliary brakes on all of my Model T's.


Burger in Spokane
Posts: 2251
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:05 am
First Name: Brent
Last Name: Burger
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 TT closed cab flatbed
Location: Spokane, Wa.
Board Member Since: 2014

Re: Obsolete obsolescence

Post by Burger in Spokane » Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:28 pm

What was the function of neatsfoot oil in the initial set up of
cotton bands ?
More people are doing it today than ever before !


Wayne Sheldon
Posts: 3637
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
First Name: Wayne
Last Name: Sheldon
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 Runabout 1913 Speedster
Location: Grass Valley California, USA
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Obsolete obsolescence

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:11 am

A few comments and/or thoughts from me.
It saddens me to know that good cotton bands are not readily available. I have run Kevlar before, and have Kevlar ready and waiting to be put into my 1915 runabout. That is because I couldn't get good cotton linings that I believed I could trust. My 1913 has Kevlar on the brake, and my last two good old cotton linings on the low and reverse.
I ran cotton linings on several of my model Ts over the years. Loved them! I hadn't heard bout soaking in neatsfoot oil before, but I did fully soak then in fresh motor oil before using them.
My first model T speedster had cotton linings in it. I listened to the advice of some experienced model T owners (thank you Ed, et al!), and set them up right (a bit loose!), and kept them properly adjusted. I also used them properly, NOT gunning the engine or slipping the bands any more than absolutely necessary!
I drove that car for several years and drove it HARD! Calistoga Races, several Endurance Runs, a round trip to southern California for a Catalina Capers tour! I drove that car everywhere! It didn't have an odometer, but I kept a running track of mileage in my head. The low estimate on those bands? Eight thousand miles minimum, and they were still good. Don't tell me that cotton bands won't hold up!

Wood bands I rarely discuss. I imagine the ones in recent years are okay, and would consider them. However, the one car I did use wood bands in didn't work out so well. Full disclosure, it was a LONG time ago! And the wood bands at that time were not made by the fine people that have been making them for many years now! So, my and several other people's experience with them should not be taken seriously today. Sometimes (in those days!) they worked great! And sometimes, they wouldn't hold up at all. I suspect that the people making them in those days (there were a couple people making and selling them) were NOT being careful enough selecting the wood they used. I suspect that whether they held up or not depended on the lay of the grain in the wood,
The funny part of my using them, was that I was running a temporary tired old engine in a model T I had just resurrected. The low drum was BADLY scored! A 3/8 inch wide deep cut with sharp edges clear around the drum! I knew there was no way a cotton band could take that much abuse, and this was before Kevlar became available. I figured wood had at least a chance of conforming to the score in the drum, and it wouldn't cut and unravel like the cotton weave would. And it WORKED! I never had any trouble from that low drum! However, the brake didn't work so very well. The car had a great hand brake! An offshoot adaption with a very large drum that gave excellent service. I used the hand brake almost all the time. But the foot brake, using it only occasionally and lightly? One Endurance Run? Using the hand brake about ninety percent of the time? I had to pull the cover and adjust that stupid brake band three times in ONE day!
I only ran that engine for about two years. When I pulled the engine, and removed the bands? Low and reverse were still in fine condition, and eventually found their way into another model T. The brake band was worn almost completely through, and falling apart.(I checked it for round when I took it out? It was still round.)


Brent B, I am also a bit curious about soaking the cotton linings in neatsfoot oil. Just a thought? Maybe, I suspect the neatsfoot oil may soak in and adhere to the fibers in a better way and maybe just maybe it protects the cotton from the effects of moisture in the oil.
Something that is not consistent, but I have seen this several times. Cotton in band linings is like cotton cord in tires. Cotton is subject to a type of fungal infection that can lay dormant for a short time, or a long time. Initial processing does not remove it all, if it is there. In clothing, repeated washing will eventually remove it all. But in things like transmission bands and tire casings, if it happens to be there, and even microscopic moisture finds its way in? That cotton can rot to the fortitude of a sandcastle.
I have taken apart several old engines that have been sitting for years. I have pulled out oil soaked transmission bands that looked like they were brand new! But they had absolutely no fibrous strength at all! A perfect looking weave, soaked in old oil, yet they turned to dust in my fingers.
We know condensation contaminates the oil with small amounts of water. Could it be that water was enough to activate the fungal infestation natural to cotton? And in spite of all the oil also present, rotted the cotton fibers?

Believe me. I have my doubts about that whole hypothesis. Between the oil and the engine heat? How could it survive at all? But it is something to wonder about. And I have seen enough thoroughly rotted oil soaked bands that something had to get to them.

Regardless. As much as I wish I could buy some really good cotton bands? (For a reasonable price I can afford?) I can live with Kevlar, or wood if they continue to be good. And, if things get worse? I suspect I could make something myself (maybe leather???) that might work okay?

User avatar

JohnH
Posts: 344
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:57 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Hunter
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Geelong Tourer
Location: Blue Mountains, Australia
Board Member Since: 2002
Contact:

Re: Obsolete obsolescence

Post by JohnH » Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:53 am

Maybe it's just the way I drive, but I've had excellent results with cotton linings. Mark Automotive were the best, but both the old and new (supposedly inferior) Scandinavians have also performed well. Typically I get around 6 to 8 years out of the brake lining, and have had 10 years out of the low lining when it was a Mark automotive. I've always soaked them in ATF before rivetting.
Now that cotton linings are on the list of no longer produced parts, I'll be going to bonded linings when my stock runs out.


BUSHMIKE
Posts: 337
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2022 6:46 am
First Name: Mike
Last Name: Cushway
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1925 TT, 1926 TT, 1926 TT
Location: Trout Creek, MI
MTFCA Number: 52588

Re: Obsolete obsolescence

Post by BUSHMIKE » Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:12 am

Bonded linings? Please elaborate.


Topic author
Rich P. Bingham
Posts: 1376
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:24 am
First Name: Rich
Last Name: Bingham
Location: Blackfoot, Idaho
Board Member Since: 2015

Re: Obsolete obsolescence

Post by Rich P. Bingham » Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:49 am

Nothing said as I recall as to the reason. I'm thinking it's reasonable to assume that well lubricated lining will wear better, and that a "dry" one will not ? Neatsfoot oil is light and penetrates absorbtive materials very well. After soaking, the linings were thoroughly saturated. Of course you soak the lining after they have been installed on the bands.
Get a horse !


TXGOAT2
Posts: 6411
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:08 pm
First Name: Pat
Last Name: McNallen
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926-7 roadster
Location: Graham, Texas
MTFCA Number: 51486
Board Member Since: 2021

Re: Obsolete obsolescence

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:19 am

Neatsfoot oil may not dissolve in motor oil, or some ingredient in it may not. Beeswax resists petroleum oil and some solvents. As for organic linings, dirty motor oil that has become acidic would probably attack wood or cotton linings over time. Oil that is moisture-cut might also promote decay of organic linings. Modern synthetic oils seem to work well with the various band linings. They certainly give good results with Kevlar lining.
Last edited by TXGOAT2 on Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Topic author
Rich P. Bingham
Posts: 1376
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:24 am
First Name: Rich
Last Name: Bingham
Location: Blackfoot, Idaho
Board Member Since: 2015

Re: Obsolete obsolescence

Post by Rich P. Bingham » Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:37 am

:lol: Pat, with the demise of cotton lining, I suppose the discussion is academic. You raise a number of details that may (have been ?) worth considering, always a good read ! Thank you. :D I do know from personal experience that neatsfoot oil does mix imperceptibly with Rotella. To go further down the rabbit hole, there is a major difference between "neatsfoot oil compound" and pure neatsfoot oil. The compound is a petroleum oil, the real thing is an organic oil extracted from beef hocks.
Get a horse !

User avatar

jsaylor
Posts: 334
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:25 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Saylor
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1921 Touring, 1927 Tudor
Location: Citrus Heights, Ca
MTFCA Number: 1695
MTFCI Number: 23870
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Obsolete obsolescence

Post by jsaylor » Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:45 am

Bonded linings? Please elaborate
Bonded linings were popular for a while in the 60-80 era. They were a very hard industrial lining that was glued / bonded to the band. They were harsh, chattered, but wore forever. I ran some back then but when I saw the wear on the drums, I went back to cotton and then kevlar when it came out. I still have some of those bonded bands on the shelf and tried to remove the lining but its on there forever and will have to be ground off.


Dan McEachern
Posts: 1180
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:08 am
First Name: DAN
Last Name: MCEACHERN
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: too many. '14 touring, 2 depot hacks, 2 speedsters
Location: ALAMEDA,CA,USA

Re: Obsolete obsolescence

Post by Dan McEachern » Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:13 pm

The bonded linings referred to above used the same friction material as modern automatic transmissions. My recollection was the chattering may well have been due to running them on trans drums with worn bushings. It was a common problem back then, but the biggest issue was that they did not play well with the relatively soft cast iron drum material. Drum wear was a problem with them.

User avatar

JohnH
Posts: 344
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:57 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Hunter
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Geelong Tourer
Location: Blue Mountains, Australia
Board Member Since: 2002
Contact:

Re: Obsolete obsolescence

Post by JohnH » Tue Feb 07, 2023 4:29 pm

Bonded linings were popular in this part of the world a while back. I've driven a high mileage 26 tourer with them, and the drums looked perfectly OK when we had the powerplant out. The only difference in driving was they were a little bit more 'grabby', but they didn't chatter. I know of a TT in regular use also with bonded linings, and there's no complaints about it. I think it comes down to what material is used for the bonded lining. When I had the hub brakes bonded I had a choice to two materials, and tried both. Not surprisingly, the softer material was the smoothest in action.


TXGOAT2
Posts: 6411
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:08 pm
First Name: Pat
Last Name: McNallen
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926-7 roadster
Location: Graham, Texas
MTFCA Number: 51486
Board Member Since: 2021

Re: Obsolete obsolescence

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:08 pm

Brake lining and other friction material comes in a number of variations, with some being "fast" or soft lining, and others being hard. The "soft" lining needs less pressure to work and usually has a better "feel", but it wears faster. Hard lining requires more pressure and probably causes more wear to drums, discs, etc. I imagine that most all friction linings vary similarly, with some being better suited for particular applications and some less so.


kmatt2
Posts: 558
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:41 pm
First Name: Kevin
Last Name: Matthiesen
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 26 T Coupe, 16 T Open Express, 21 TT Flatbed. 15 T Roadster, 13 & 25 T Speedster , 51 Mercury 4 door sport sedan, 67 Mercury Cougar
Location: Madera CA 93636
MTFCA Number: 11598

Re: Obsolete obsolescence

Post by kmatt2 » Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:39 pm

Back in the mid 1970’s I knew the person doing the bonded Model T transmission bands in Central California area. The linings were the same material as was used in old cable operated dragline brake drums that stop and hold the cables in use. Many such draglines from the 1950’s were still in use by irrigation districts back then. On the T bands they worked well but required a few filed notches to allow oil to reach the drums when not being applied. Just like with today’s wood bands they required removing the hogshead to install to keep them round, also like with Kevlar, over slipping of the drums wasn’t good on the drums. They worked well with proper use in a time when the only other option was the new cotton bands that weren’t made quite like the older cotton bands were made in prior years. Today we have wood and Kevlar and both have their pros and cons but both can work well.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic