MTFCA Forum

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2023 6:42 pm**

I have a pair of engine splash pans that have been laying around in the shop that I am going to put on my 22. But, I can’t find any pictures of how they mount on the frame. Can anyone show pictures or give advice on how they mount? Thanks.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2023 7:21 pm**

Hold them in place. There are 2 outer tabs that mount to the hood shelf bolts under the frame.
Mounting should be obvious. They are a PITA to mount to the pan bolts. You will need a friend to help.
You will soon learn why "everybody" left them off after the first engine pull.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2023 7:44 pm**

Yeah, they look like a pain to live with, but they came on the car and it’s put them on or throw them out. Honestly, they have been biting my ankles for so long in the shop I want to install them in self defense!

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2023 7:54 pm**

They sit flat. Hold them up to the bolts where the pan connects to the block and line up with the curve of the pan at the front of the engine. The chassis side should line up with holes made for the splash pans inside the channel of the frame. Again. They sit perfectly flat. Jim Patrick
PS: Check out this 2013 thread:
www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/33 ... 1357666510

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2023 8:01 pm**

Mount 'em.... or sell 'em.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2023 8:17 pm**

Reno Speedster wrote: ↑
Sat Feb 25, 2023 7:44 pm
Yeah, they look like a pain to live with, but they came on the car and it’s put them on or throw them out. Honestly, they have been biting my ankles for so long in the shop I want to install them in self defense!

The engine splash pans can be considered part of the cooling system. By enclosing the engine compartment a negative pressure zone is created while driving . As air passes through the radiator the air flow over the top of the hood's louvers creates a vacuum and air is pulled out from the enclosed compartment allowing more air to flow through the radiator. When they are remove the air is pulled from under engine and less from through the radiator. I often wonder how many T's with heating issues have the pans removed vs on.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2023 8:19 pm**

Reno Speedster wrote: ↑
Sat Feb 25, 2023 7:44 pm
Yeah, they look like a pain to live with, but they came on the car and it’s put them on or throw them out. Honestly, they have been biting my ankles for so long in the shop I want to install them in self defense!

Now, thats funny.
There is always option 3. Hang em on the wall to admire.

Posted: **Sat Feb 25, 2023 8:20 pm**

I like mine. They’re good for catching dropped parts when servicing the engine. They also look good and help keep the mud off the engine and road dust out of the cab and engine compartment, diverting a lot of dust and dirt away from the carburetor intake. They also pull in more cooling air through the radiator and direct the flow of air from the radiator over the engine instead of the airflow escaping under the car. They attach to the engine side from underneath the pan. Jim Patrick

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2023 1:13 am**

You will need a friend to help.

I've always removed and installed them solo, and I don't find them a major PITA. They're certainly less annoying than some other jobs on a T.

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2023 7:24 am**

They are still on Henrietta. I really appreciate their sound deadening qualities. There is an accumulated layer of dirt, oil chaff etc about 1/2 " thick on the RH one. I wonder if that means the cooling system is compromised in any way?

Allan from down under.

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2023 9:16 am**

They might have been helpful on the old muddy dirt roads with puddles etc. Between the carburetor air pipe and the splash aprons less likely to get mud or water in the carb. They don't seem to be necessary on our modern roads. And if you are like me, i try not to drive in rain unless I happen to get caught in a quick storm unexpectedly.
Norm

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2023 11:14 am**

My car has them, and they seem to offer all the advantages mentioned above.

As for oil/dirt on the right hand shield, that may be due to oil spilled while adding oil, and perhaps also some normal deposition of oil over time due to normal crankcase blowby from the filler cap being deposited on the shield. It shouldn't cause any problems, but I'd remove the debris for appearance's sake and to prevent it from absorbing gasoline in the even the carburetor leaked. The presence of chaff and dirt confirms the need for an air cleaner.

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2023 11:31 am**

They don't seem to be necessary on our modern roads.

OK, explain this to me...by 1930 major high ways with macadam or concrete are being constructed as a result of lobbyist wanting better roads. Most towns and cities have paved streets.

And just from observation a majority of finer automobiles have engine splash pans, for their engine compartment. As an example our 1931 Packard Coupe and the 1939,1940, and 1941 Packard touring sedans have engine splash pans.

Was the removal and aversion of the Model T engine splash pan the result of lazy mechanics?

The family 1922 Coupe, over 50 years ownership, has a set of pans with no issues to repairs and adjustments.

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2023 11:43 am**

Model As also came with splash pans. I don't think Ford would have gone to the trouble and expense of manufacturing, handling, and installing them if they had no function other than to annoy mechanics.

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2023 12:18 pm**

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑
Sun Feb 26, 2023 11:43 am
Model As also came with splash pans. I don't think Ford would have gone to the trouble and expense of manufacturing, handling, and installing them if they had no function other than to annoy mechanics.

You are absolutely correct. I explained it above as being part of the cooling system. That explanation goes along with why Hot Roders louvered their hoods and why modern cars have pans under their engines now. Without the pans air turbulents result and the the negative pressure zone is defeated

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2023 1:19 pm**

They don't seem to be necessary on our modern roads.

Our modern roads are different.

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2023 1:22 pm**

Steve Jelf wrote: ↑
Sun Feb 26, 2023 1:13 am

You will need a friend to help.

I've always removed and installed them solo, and I don't find them a major PITA. They're certainly less annoying than some other jobs on a T.

How?
How do you install & tighten the crankcase bolts & nuts around the pans by yourself?
Do you remove the fenders?
I couldnt figure out how to install the bolts from the underside & wrench the nuts.

Not trying to start another Jihad.
I see the positives of their use. After All they are correct. I appreciate originality.
I have not found them necessary for my T's. I dont have any cooling issues or drive dirt roads much.

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2023 1:49 pm**

I have an old 9/16" socket that I welded a 1 & 1/4" x 1/8" flat bar piece across the top - nut turns until the socket stops at the block !

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2023 2:00 pm**

How do you install & tighten the crankcase bolts & nuts around the pans by yourself?

1 Loosen the appropriate engine pan nuts as far as you can without removing them. If you're using cotter pins, pay attention to the direction of the holes for when you install the pins later.
2 Put the pan in place and install the two hood shelf nuts.
3 Shove the two or three loosened bolts all the way up and Gorilla tape the heads to keep them from turning.
4 Go upside and tighten the nuts.

Reading of Steve Tomaso's special tool, I can think of some other places where that principle could apply. Nearly all combination wrenches are angled at the box end. Why not bend some spare wrenches to lie flat? I can think of places where a flat wrench taped on the blind end would be a good backup.

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2023 2:27 pm**

Why not bend some spare wrenches to lie flat? I can think of places where a flat wrench taped on the blind end would be a good backup.

Yes indeed.
You can also use the 'open' end of the wrench which is usually flat.
Cutting a spanner off with a short handle is useful too, as is grinding down a wrench around the 'box' to make if thinner also helps in those situations like the carb mounting nuts too.

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2023 2:29 pm**

Yes! I have had issues with working on my motor. I have to remove the bonnet/hood to have easy access. With this discussion on the engine pans, I have come to the conclusion that I can keep the engine cover off. Why have a bonnet in the first place?

Too, ever work on a project and find you have parts left over?

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2023 2:29 pm**

ever work on a project and find you have parts left over?

Umm.... maybe ....

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2023 2:33 pm**

To me this is a fairly simple procedure. I don’t find it to difficult. I use a box end wrench and sometimes an off set box end and a ratchet socket wrench and that’s about it. This is one of the less difficult things to do on a T. I don’t use cotter pins but use lock washers. That’s one thing that makes it a little easier. And as mentioned tape to hold a nut in the box end is a step saver too.
Being raised around equipment and tractors on the farm you learn different “tricks” taking off nuts and bolts. I guess that was part of my education growing up. I did finally realize that the notched ears on T pans were there for a purpose.

I guess this is one of the reasons the engine pans were taken off permanently in the T era on more than a few T’s. People just didn’t want to mess with them.

Being a maintenance mechanic at the college for many years most of the time I worked by myself as others did. Maybe that’s why the pan installing procedure doesn’t seem extremely hard to do by yourself. But that’s me and I’m nothing special and don’t claim to be.

Maybe there is something about being a “farm fixer”.

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2023 3:08 pm**

This thread is getting too long for my attention span

so I'll just throw in my 2 cents worth and say the best place to mount t them is in the SCRAP PILE!

I've shunned that part of "my purism" and got rid of all mine when every car I bought that did have them. No regrets believe me!

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2023 3:20 pm**

TWrenn wrote: ↑
Sun Feb 26, 2023 3:08 pm
This thread is getting too long for my attention span so I'll just throw in my 2 cents worth and say the best place to mount t them is in the SCRAP PILE! I've shunned that part of "my purism" and got rid of all mine when every car I bought that did have them. No regrets believe me!

not surprised

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:19 pm**

I second the train of thought that Ford never wasted time, effort, or money on frivolous parts that were not necessary, therefore, I too, believe that the splash pans are a necessary part of the cooling system for optimum performance. Had they not been necessary, Ford is the first one that would have scrapped them in order to gain a few minutes on the assembly line. A few minutes gained over the thousands of Model T’s built adds up to several more Model T’s being built per day. Jim Patrick

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:24 pm**

RajoRacer wrote: ↑
Sun Feb 26, 2023 1:49 pm
I have an old 9/16" socket that I welded a 1 & 1/4" x 1/8" flat bar piece across the top - nut turns until the socket stops at the block !

Neat tool. Great idea.
I could try a T handle with a socket also.
Its now possible to do the job alone.

Correct me if I am wrong.
The procedure would be to loosen all the corresponding crank case bolts to the last thread.
Place the pans. place the tool on one bolt. Go under & tighten that one bolt. Get out from under, move the tool, go back under & tighten that one bolt. Repeat, until all the bolts are tight.
My old bones especially dislike getting up & down from under a T.
I might be better off getting the wife to hold a wrench on the top side even with the inevitable fight.

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:26 pm**

jiminbartow wrote: ↑
Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:19 pm
I second the train of thought that Ford never wasted time, effort, or money on frivolous parts that were not necessary, therefore, I too, believe that the splash pans are a necessary part of the cooling system for optimum performance. Had they not been necessary, Ford is the first one that would have scrapped them in order to gain a few minutes on the assembly line. A few minutes gained over the thousands of Model T’s built adds up to several more Model T’s being built per day. Jim Patrick

I dont argue these points.
I wonder if the job was done before the fenders went on.
Or was it a 2 man operation of great coordination between the 2 men.

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2023 6:33 pm**

Steve Jelf wrote: ↑
Sun Feb 26, 2023 2:00 pm

How do you install & tighten the crankcase bolts & nuts around the pans by yourself?

1 Loosen the appropriate engine pan nuts as far as you can without removing them. If you're using cotter pins, pay attention to the direction of the holes for when you install the pins later.
2 Put the pan in place and install the two hood shelf nuts.
3 Shove the two or three loosened bolts all the way up and Gorilla tape the heads to keep them from turning.
4 Go upside and tighten the nuts.

Reading of Steve Tomaso's special tool, I can think of some other places where that principle could apply. Nearly all combination wrenches are angled at the box end. Why not bend some spare wrenches to lie flat? I can think of places where a flat wrench taped on the blind end would be a good backup.

Thanks for your method.
You say Gorilla tape will hold all the bolt heads enough to tighten the top nuts.
Only one trip under the car. Very good! Very doable alone with minimal hassle.

You taught an old dog a new trick.

I think a wrench, even bent would be prone to coming off due to the weight on the opposite end as one tightened from the bottom side..

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2023 7:00 pm**

And as Elmer Fudd would say:

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2023 7:31 pm**

Don’t end this thread just yet… I did my splash pans by myself. Since the bolt holes on the engine side of the splash pans are u-shaped and not full holes, the bolts do not have to be removed, but only loosened. Once loosened, Choose a starting point and clamp vice grip pliers onto one of the nuts with the handle of the vide grips to the right, braced against the block so that, once you start turning the bolt from underneath clock-wise, with a socket wrench, the nut won’t turn. The splash pan can be slid into place under the loosened bolt heads with the chassis side sitting inside the bottom leg of the chassis channel. With the vice grips holding the engine side nut on top, crawl under and tighten the bolt with a socket head wrench with a 4” extension. Continue this until all the engine side bolts and nuts are tight. When one side is done, drop in bolt into the chassis side with a nut on the bottom, using the vice grips to hold the head of the nut while you tighten the nut from underneath.

I’m sure when they were originally installed on the assembly line, two men were used. One on top and one on bottom. For a faster job, they might have even used four men. Two for the right pan and two for the left pan. Jim Patrick

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 12:04 am**

You say Gorilla tape will hold all the bolt heads enough to tighten the top nuts.

The tape will at least hold them up while you put the nuts on. If they want to turn when the nut starts getting tight, clamp a vise grip on them.

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 12:45 am**

They are easier to install than the bolts on the hogs head ears on a car with no door on the drivers side especially if it has a starter!
Norm

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 10:38 am**

I have a set of pans for sale that came off my '23 touring. PM me if interested.

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 11:08 am**

Steve Jelf wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 27, 2023 12:04 am

You say Gorilla tape will hold all the bolt heads enough to tighten the top nuts.

The tape will at least hold them up while you put the nuts on. If they want to turn when the nut starts getting tight, clamp a vise grip on them.

Yea, but then I am back to going under the car multiple times again.

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 11:49 am**

Bolts go in the engine from underneath with nuts on top. No need for gorilla tape to hold the engine bolts in place. Nuts only need to be loosened, not taken off all the way. Splash pans are slid under the loosened bolt heads. Jim Patrick

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 11:54 am**

I would seriously doubt that the splash pans have much to do with our 35 mph 20 hp Model T underhood aerodynamics. In a modern car I would agree with that premise, but in the case of the T I think that the splash pans are exactly that - splash pans to keep water out of the timer, coils, and cloth-insulated wires.
Taking the opposite side with modern cars, there is considerable thought given to airflow under the hood. When I lived in Massachusetts, I got a huge kick watching the state troopers (natives call them "staties") sitting in their cruisers in the summer watching the construction site - excuse me, insuring the safety of the motorists and construction workers - with the AC on and the hood open a couple of inches. This of course means that all of the cooling air doesn't have to flow through the radiator. The trooper is exacerbating the very problem that he/she is trying to prevent.

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 12:25 pm**

jiminbartow wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 27, 2023 11:49 am
Bolts go in the engine from underneath with nuts on top. No need for gorilla tape to hold the engine bolts in place. Nuts only need to be loosened, not taken off all the way. Splash pans are slid under the loosened bolt heads. Jim Patrick

The point of the gorilla tape was to keep the bolts from turning whall re-tightening the nuts.
IF it holds enough until the nuts all get tight, the job will have become quite easy. No longer the PITA it was.
If not, its still multiple go unders. No gain.
Back to needing an assistant up top or multiple welded up socket tools ala Rajo Racer design.
Any better ideas?

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 12:45 pm**

I want to ask another question about cooling and airflow. I have a 1914 Touring and it does not have any louvers in the side of the hood like the later models do. My car did not have any splash pans when I got it and it seems like that is the only place hot air can escape the engine compartment. Would I be creating a hot box around the engine if I added splash pans?

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 12:52 pm**

That's how they came from the factory, with engine pans. Transmission pans too on the early Ts.

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 1:24 pm**

Hood louvers were added for the new under hood horn mounting.

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 1:32 pm**

The term "splash pans" is not what Ford called their engine pans. Perhaps the same jargon being applied to the running board shields as "splash aprons". As what people observed what their visual effect was. and nicknamed them.
For those who support the purpose of keeping the engine clean are indirectly supporting the argument that they were intended to prevent turbulents in the engine compartment that would disrupt the intended air flow. The engine pan design was continued through the Model A V8 era

: running board shield.png (58.98 KiB) Viewed 13840 times

Remember people used to say “ALL MODEL Ts WERE BLACK”

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 1:44 pm**

Good point, Frank. At 35 mph, there is barely enough force to push the air through the radiator, much less enough to force the air flow over the engine. Without engine splash pans, air flow entering the engine compartment can create pressures inside the compartment that could impede the flow of air through the radiator creating a situation that might delay the cooling of the water in the radiator. Splash shields stop the air flow from underneath, eliminating the pressure in the engine compartment, allowing the air coming through the radiator an unimpeded flow with more efficient engine cooling capacity. Jim Patrick

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 1:53 pm**

The Ford service manual in paragraphs 23 and 24 refer to the pans as engine pan left and engine pan right. If there is any mention of the pans besides these I overlooked it. I didn’t find any reference to reinstalling them so I guess it was a non issue for Ford. If it was it would have been in the manual.

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 2:45 pm**

Ford thought them necessary. Had he eliminated the engine pans he could have saved 60 cents per car, for 15 million cars that is 9 million dollars!

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 7:04 pm**

Going one step further, what about the transmission pans on the earlier cars? An extension of the "cooling system"?

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 2:28 am**

schwabd1 wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 27, 2023 7:04 pm
Going one step further, what about the transmission pans on the earlier cars? An extension of the "cooling system"?

I would imagine these were eliminated to keep the the front seating area cooler. Especially on the passenger side where it would reflect the heat from the exhaust pipe. All that was needed to justify a cost savings

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 3:28 am**

Can anyone point me in the direction of period literature regarding engine pans and cooling system contributions they make. I need convincing/educating on their use. I can imagine modern vehicles with aerodynamic considerations and much higher speeds that radiator shrouding, air induction ducts etc do contribute, along with water pumps, to modern engine cooling.

Henry did tinker with a shroud on the T radiator with the early tin cars. It was promptly dropped. I wonder why?

Allan from down under.

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:05 am**

35 MPH is easily enough airspeed to affect airflow over and through the Model T. Any speed over 8 to10 MPH has a substantial effect, even on a calm day. If you are moving into a headwind, which I always seem to be, the effects are even more pronounced. Ford would have eliminated the pans entirely if they had been found to be redundant. I don't know why anyone would need to remove and re-install them except on very rare occasions, if ever. I've driven my car around 12,000 miles without removing the pans or being inconvenienced by them in any significant way.

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:15 am**

Ford dropped the fan shroud because it was deemed not to be cost effective. Note that Ford did NOT drop the engine pans, and continued them through the Model A era. FWIW, a fan shroud would address the tendency of the Model T to overheat if idled for extended periods in hot weather. One might be useful in a parade situation. At speeds above 8-10 MPH, a fan shroud might actually hamper airflow. Another issue with a fan shroud on a Model T is the way fan belt adjustments were made. Moving the fan relative to the shroud to adjust the belt would make it necessary to make the shroud opening around the fan large enough to accommodate that movement, which would reduce its effectiveness.

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:37 am**

The answer, I think, is in the name - splash pans. Modern day drivers for the most part have little, if any, comprehension of the roadless conditions where most model Ts initially operated. The transmission pans are a good example of an item found to be an unnecessary expense and then eliminated. The engine pans are very effective for keeping cascades of mud and water out of the fan, timer and carburetor, even the spark plugs. Improving air flow through the radiator was most likely a happy dividend not considered at first.

As for air speed, 30 mph is "walking slow" to today's motorist, fully encapsulated in an air-tight climate conditioned bubble, but it's the reason jockeys wear goggles, and the reason for their frequent appearance in the period photos of early automobiles.

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:53 am**

Well then! There is the proof about having problems left over. And The proof that those who praise the thermo system are mistaken about removing the engine pans. The pan are part of the thermo-syphon system!!

The engine pans and the addition of a water pump may actually improve cooling.

: transmission pans.png (168.46 KiB) Viewed 13658 times

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:58 am**

For Allan:
"Can anyone point me in the direction of period literature regarding engine pans and cooling system contributions they make. I need convincing/educating on their use."

Years back, I found a 1907/08 article about new automobiles and those with out water pumps. The journal was British Press discussing a list of automobiles with out water pumps, including Ford, and there was an article about the use of a thermo system.

I will check my notes.

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:35 am**

The pan are part of the thermo-syphon system!!

using the title of a parts page as evidence of what a thermosystem is comprised of, then I suppose the crankshaft is part of the system, too

FWIW - the parts circled are transmission pans and were dropped from production with the introduction of the 1915 model year...a very uncommon part to find in the wild.

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:08 am**

Leave it to a bunch of Model T guys to overthink the living crap out of something.

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:19 am**

Don't be a poop, Jerry

I learn a lot from these kinds of discussions; nothing about Model T's, but still, lots.

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:22 am**

Labeling on the page of "thermo-syphon" motor looks to be a way to separate the later T's mechanically to the earliest T's.
Not a claim that the timing cover is part of the thermo-syphon system or any other parts shown on the page.
Note the section under labeled "Motor- pump circulation."
The crankcase shown has no inspection cover, making this of the earliest parts lists.

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:22 am**

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑
Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:19 am
Don't be a poop, Jerry

I learn a lot from these kinds of discussions; nothing about Model T's, but still, lots.

Thanks Scott!

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:31 am**

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑
Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:19 am
. . .
I learn a lot from these kinds of discussions; nothing about Model T's, but still, lots.

Examples of what not to do can be as valuable as positive information

I'll bet the owner of this car was glad it had splash pans ! (he probably wore goggles, too !)

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:49 am**

In splash pans, I sense the rise of another controversial pro and con subject along the lines of water pumps and Model T colors. Jim Patrick

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:51 am**

Allan wrote: ↑
Tue Feb 28, 2023 3:28 am
Can anyone point me in the direction of period literature regarding engine pans and cooling system contributions they make. I need convincing/educating on their use. I can imagine modern vehicles with aerodynamic considerations and much higher speeds that radiator shrouding, air induction ducts etc do contribute, along with water pumps, to modern engine cooling.

Henry did tinker with a shroud on the T radiator with the early tin cars. It was promptly dropped. I wonder why?

Allan from down under.

I couldn't find a "period literature" with respect to engine pans but I did find one. It all has to do with Bernoulli's principle that states that an increase in the speed of a fluid (air) occurs simultaneously with a decrease in pressure or a decrease in the fluid's potential energy.
Also you will notice the increase in engine hood louvers over the years from none to lots

Engine Compartment air flow
https://omgpham.com/aerodynamics-of-eng ... ing-part-1
When air hits the front of a car it causes a stagnation point, high pressure. So for air to flow across the radiator, there must be an area of relative low pressure on the engine side. The larger the difference in pressures, the more air will flow across. To increase this movement of air across the radiator, it's very important to shroud all edges so that air MUST flow through the radiator instead of around it.

After air passes through the radiator, what happens to it all? Well some of it quickly exits through the under-body, but not much because air flow under a car is slow from all the drag caused by the gearbox, exhaust, suspension, etc... The rest of it stays inside the engine bay and creates a lot of turbulence as it collides with the engine and other components. This is therefore the limiting factor as it creates a high pressure, slow moving air (turbulent), so now the difference between pressures in front and behind the radiator is dramatically reduced. Air flow across the radiator decreases as a result...
Read the link.....
There is more part 2 https://omgpham.com/aerodynamics-of-eng ... ing-part-2

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 12:36 pm**

Ive got it figured out! If Henry didn’t say it that’s enough for me.

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 1:14 pm**

The area beneath the moving car has low pressure. The area between the hood and fenders, behind the headlights, has low pressure. If you park a Model T that has just been on a run of several miles inside a shop, leaving the shop door open, and place a large shop fan in front of the car and facing it, you will find that the majority of the warm air coming off the radiator and engine will pass under the car and out behind it. Some will exit the hood louvers, but most will go down, under, and out behind the car. A 48" drum fan will move a lot of air, but it is nowhere near as much as will pass over and under a Model T going 15-20 MPH on a calm day.

(Concrete floor, 1927 roadster with pans in place and fan in place, engine off, 48" Chinese drum fan 3' in front of car, car parked about 7' inside a 12'X12' open overhead door.)

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 1:28 pm**

Allan etal:

""Can anyone point me in the direction of period literature regarding engine pans and cooling system contributions they make. I need convincing/educating on their use.""

I do not know if this is what you seek...it may be a start.

See: Horseless Age Volume XX, 1907., Air Velocity and Rate of Cooling., page 844-

I found it via Google Search Books.

Good Luck.

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 3:03 pm**

Frank and Pat, I would think that, instead of remaining in the engine compartment, bouncing around, the air would flow out through the hood louvers, creating a siphon or suction effect that pulls in more air through the radiator. Jim Patrick

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 3:30 pm**

It all has to do with Bernoulli's principle...

Model T Ford engine pans? Really?

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 3:52 pm**

jiminbartow wrote: ↑
Tue Feb 28, 2023 3:03 pm
Frank, I would think that, instead of remaining in the engine compartment, bouncing around, the air would flow out through the hood louvers, creating a siphon or suction effect that pulls in more air through the radiator. Jim Patrick

Dang !! My '13 got no hood louvres !!

Now what ?!?

What can I do about all that bouncey air ?!?

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 4:30 pm**

The Ford Models NRS that preceded the Model T had a belly pan under the engine crankcase. I don’t, however, think its purpose was to provide better cooling. In the sales brochures where it describes the components of the car it states: “Dust Pan – protects all machinery from mud and grit”. Since most the roads in the Model T era were likely as muddy and gritty as in the NRS days, I’d guess the engine pans on our T’s were included for that purpose.

That said, one could build a computer model of a T engine compartment with radiator in a CFD (computational fluid dynamics) program and see where the air and heat flows. Do this with and without the engine pans and under different driving conditions. It would be a fun project. As a chemical engineer I did lots of fluid flow and thermal simulations using CFD modeling, but I am now retired and don’t have access to this expensive software. Maybe someone reading this has CFD experience and the opportunity to try and model this scenario.

Rich C.

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 5:35 pm**

You can get a fair idea of where the hot air flows while underway without a laboratory.

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 5:37 pm**

Aero drag coefficients for each year and type of Model T body configuration would be interesting and useful information.

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 5:53 pm**

Aero drag coefficients for each year and type of Model T body configuration would be interesting and useful information.

See: https://www.academia.edu/6471009/CFD_An ... rd_Model_T

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 6:06 pm**

jiminbartow wrote: ↑
Tue Feb 28, 2023 3:03 pm
Frank, I would think that, instead of remaining in the engine compartment, bouncing around, the air would flow out through the hood louvers, creating a siphon or suction effect that pulls in more air through the radiator. Jim Patrick

You are exactly correct. In the link I posted above, part2, the author purchased an engine pan with louvers to further enhance the air flow.

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 8:41 pm**

This has been one of the most informative threads I have ever followed. I originally installed splash pans on my 1926 coupe because they were something that was installed at the factory and I wanted my T to be as accurate as possible. Until this thread and the many thoughtful posts on the reasons splash pans are such a valuable asset to the efficient cooling of the engine, I never gave much thought as to why they are so necessary and the scientific reasoning behind it. Now I am of the opinion that they are absolutely necessary for the optimum performance of the thermo-siphon cooling system, which is so necessary to the overall performance of the engine. Jim Patrick

Posted: **Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:33 pm**

"The Ford service manual in paragraphs 23 and 24 refer to the pans as engine pan left and engine pan right. If there is any mention of the pans besides these I overlooked it. I didn’t find any reference to reinstalling them so I guess it was a non issue for Ford. If it was it would have been in the manual."

See Ford Service Manual "Installing Engine in Car: Paragraph 336 (i) Assemble engine pans (right and left) to engine."

Posted: **Wed Mar 01, 2023 9:33 am**

I believe that it was understood that parts removed in the course of service operations were to be replaced, either with the original parts, or replacement parts, if needed.

Posted: **Wed Mar 01, 2023 10:37 am**

jiminbartow wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 27, 2023 1:44 pm
Good point, Frank. At 35 mph, there is barely enough force to push the air through the radiator, much less enough to force the air flow over the engine. Without engine splash pans, air flow entering the engine compartment can create pressures inside the compartment that could impede the flow of air through the radiator creating a situation that might delay the cooling of the water in the radiator. Splash shields stop the air flow from underneath, eliminating the pressure in the engine compartment, allowing the air coming through the radiator an unimpeded flow with more efficient engine cooling capacity. Jim Patrick

I respectfully disagree with the above. At 35 mph there is plenty of air rushing through the radiator to cool the engine, and that air is hot after passing through the radiator. It would hurt rather then help the engine cool. The best way to insure proper cooling is to get rid of the hot air the fastest way possible. Modern cars usually have the air exit at the rear of the hood which gets the hot air out of the engine compartment via the shortest path possible. If you turn the front wheels in a T as you might at a 90-degree intersection turn, the outward turning front wheel would be a conveyor belt for water, muck, or anything else to splash all over the side of the engine. Remember that the stock T has no air cleaner. My T didn't come with the pans, and I didn't even know that it was supposed to have them, until I had owned and driven it for several years. It still doesn't have them and it's not going to get them as long as I own it. I don't drive it in inclement weather. It cools beautifully, even on a 90+ degree Florida summah day.

Posted: **Wed Mar 01, 2023 11:01 am**

The air coming through the radiator is much cooler than the exhaust manifold. Yes, air must exit the underhood area quickly if air is to flow through the radiator in high volume. If you look at the way a Model T is built, You will see that the main exit area for air to escape from under the hood is to pass under the upper firewall and under the floorboards. In aggregate, this open area is probably larger than the combined area of the hood louver openings, if any are present, even on the late model hoods. At any significant road speed, the air pressure in and near the open areas behind the engine block is at a lower pressure than the air entering the radiator core. This helps evacuate hot air from the underhood area. The pans contribute by enhancing the pressure drop within the underhood area and ensuring that most of the air exiting the underhood area has passed through the radiator core and over the engine. The fan is a rather puny affair, at best, and probably acts to inhibit airflow at higher road speeds. The hood louvers probably do more to allow high heat from the exhaust manifold to escape the underhood area when the vehicle is parked after a run than anything else.

Posted: **Wed Mar 01, 2023 1:50 pm**

Trying to understand all aspects of the engine pans.
So for those who run without the pans, does your engine get dirty after a drive?

Posted: **Wed Mar 01, 2023 1:58 pm**

It depends on your driving conditions. If mostly on paved roads, in dry weather no problem with muck on block. But if on muddy roads or very dusty dirt roads, you will get more dirt. It is easy to wipe off the dirt from the engine however. Mostly I would be concerned with dirt getting in the carburetor, especially if the air heater pipe is also removed.
Norm

Posted: **Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:19 pm**

Reno Speedster wrote: ↑
Sat Feb 25, 2023 6:42 pm
I have a pair of engine splash pans that have been laying around in the shop that I am going to put on my 22. But, I can’t find any pictures of how they mount on the frame. Can anyone show pictures or give advice on how they mount? Thanks.

Morgan,

I'm just curious, did anyone answer your original question?

Posted: **Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:33 pm**

Yea, first re-post.

Posted: **Wed Mar 01, 2023 4:21 pm**

speedytinc wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 01, 2023 2:33 pm
Yea, first re-post.

Yes, I see now. Thank you sir.

Posted: **Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:13 pm**

Breakthrough!

Posted: **Wed Mar 01, 2023 11:34 pm**

Yeah, this one got out of hand. I am doing some clean up under the hood (some paint, install a horn, etc.) and will put the pans in as things go back together.

Posted: **Thu Mar 02, 2023 2:29 am**

This is sort of an interesting and disturbing thread... It's sort of like the blind man describing the elewphant.

There is considerable difference between the model years and the aero dynamics of each. I have a '12 and like a couple of other posters earlier commented that we have solid sheet metal hoods with no air flow or pressure influence. Even the firewall is restricted airflow by the sheetmetal cover behind the head!

I found during driving one day on tour during some really hot weather my car was running a bit hotter than I liked. my wife couldn't put her feet on the floorboards at 130*.. I had full engine/splash pans so I removed the hood Waala!! the engine and floor temp was lowered dramatically! After that I decided to see what happens when I removed just the Exhaust/ right side engine pan of course with the hood back on. My experience is that with an early hood without louvers running a varying speeds my engine AND passenger floor boards ran the coolest. Of course with no pan to catch the oil fill cap or other parts I have a disadvantage but its so cool!

Maybe most but certainly many of the Montana 500 cars run perfectly without ANY Fan! We have not had any overheating even in some hot weather as long as the car is moving air flows thru the radiators fine... Now again an early brass car has a smaller radiator and maybe even a round tube so I wouldn't advise no fan but the T fan blade doesn't move too much air.

YMMV BTW I installed my drivers side pan by myself with no issues or cussing

Posted: **Thu Mar 02, 2023 7:58 am**

As the years progressed, problems with the Model T arose and as they did so, Ford engineers addressed them. There were many and one of them was the increase in size of the radiator and the addition of louvers on each side of the hood to release retained heat inside the engine compartment. Over the18 year, 15 million run of the ModelT, the elimination of the splash pans were never a consideration. Jim Patrick

Posted: **Tue Mar 07, 2023 1:00 am**

An after action report. I found that the left hand (reproduction) pan needed some adjustment to clear the steering arm. I had to remove about 3/4 of an inch of additional material. But, once that was done and repainted both pans went in well. They look nice and were not a problem to get in.

Posted: **Tue Mar 07, 2023 9:16 am**

I don't believe the fan does anything to cool the engine above about 10 MPH. An exception might be a case where you were running with a tailwind. A late style T engine might benefit from making a custom fan hub resembling a small flywheel, maybe 6" in diameter with a thin center and heavier rim. That would give some damping effect on torsional vibration. I'd use a double ball bearing hub and keep the belt on the tight side. Better yet, make a custom crank pulley and use a modern v-groove belt, or adapt a harmonic balancer to run on the fan shaft.

Posted: **Tue Mar 07, 2023 10:30 am**

Air follows the route of least resistance. I would venture to say that, without the pulling action of the fan, a good portion of the air is most likely to bounce off the radiator and go around it rather go through the small openings between the fins. While I agree that the fan does not produce enough wind flow to sufficiently cool the surface of the engine, I believe the purpose the fan serves is to aid in pulling air through the radiator, across the engine and out the louvers, keeping a flow of fresh cool air moving through the radiator, which cools the water in the radiator, thus, cooling the engine. The splash pans, minimize the turbulence of the air through the engine compartment, helping to keep the airflow straight so it does not immediately escape the engine compartment through the bottom as soon as it is pulled in. Jim Patrick

Posted: **Tue Mar 07, 2023 10:45 am**

I am forever grateful that no one on this Forum was in charge of bringing us the light bulb.

Posted: **Tue Mar 07, 2023 10:50 am**

LOL, I was just think with over 80 post on this thread what am I missing ha. Best John

Posted: **Tue Mar 07, 2023 11:04 am**

When the car is moving above at or 10 MPH or so, high pressure develops ahead of the radiator and low pressure develops behind it, creating a good pressure drop through the core. If a tailwind diminishes the car's air speed, the effect is diminished.

The fan doesn't turn very fast, especially at low speeds in high gear. It's of small diameter, unducted, and a good portion of the total swept area is taken up by the hub and slower-moving central portions of the blades, which contribute little to creating airflow. Any flow it does generate is obstructed by the engine. At higher rotational speeds, the four blade, deep pitch fan begins to work against itself. Hot air coming through the radiator core further erodes its efficiency. I suspect that it actually acts to impede airflow at higher road speeds and engine speeds.

As others have noted, the fan is barely adequate, at best, to keep the engine temperature stable at idle with the car stopped in hot weather.
My car (Berg radiator) runs cool at temperatures over 100F with or without a fan.

Posted: **Tue Mar 07, 2023 11:05 am**

You can avoid all posts by not opening the discussion forum.

Posted: **Tue Mar 07, 2023 11:07 am**

Light bulbs are turning Greenland into a smoking desert.

Posted: **Tue Mar 07, 2023 11:10 am**

jab35 wrote: ↑
Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:33 pm
"The Ford service manual in paragraphs 23 and 24 refer to the pans as engine pan left and engine pan right. If there is any mention of the pans besides these I overlooked it. I didn’t find any reference to reinstalling them so I guess it was a non issue for Ford. If it was it would have been in the manual."
See Ford Service Manual "Installing Engine in Car: Paragraph 336 (i) Assemble engine pans (right and left) to engine."

Yes, Ford Service notes to install the engine pans on overhaul of the motor!

See Chapter III, Major Engine Overhaul

para. 326 Installing Engine in Car
(i) Assemble engine pans (right and left) to engine.

And also:

Check out Chapter XLII, the Improved Car, removing front fenders para. 1134 run off nuts on engine pan bolts (Fig. 524 "C") and then to install fenders, para. 1143, insert two engine pan bolts in hood block, frame, and engine pan (Fig. 524 "C"), so the pans are to be in place, even if changing out the front fenders.

Improved Car right pan, later double hole, for either NH drain bowl or Vaporizer drain bowl.

Posted: **Tue Mar 07, 2023 11:34 am**

See Ford Service Manual "Installing Engine in Car: Paragraph 336 (i) Assemble engine pans (right and left) to engine."

Here is a copy of that page

--
--
and further down the page - note the number of bolts to be used

Posted: **Tue Mar 07, 2023 11:52 am**

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 07, 2023 10:45 am
I am forever grateful that no one on this Forum was in charge of bringing us the light bulb.

Hmmm... light bulbs

. 6V or 12V? Positive ground or negative ground?

Posted: **Tue Mar 07, 2023 1:02 pm**

Yes this has been a long thread...but it has added some clarity to the operation of the thermosyphon system.

With that, I am hazarding a guess that the introduction of the water pump to the Model T was a result of a mechanic removing the engine pans---disrupting the thermosyphon air flow and causing the cars with out the pans to over heat. Rather than replacing the pans, a mechanic looked at the 1908 design with water pump and decided that a water pump was a solution to an over heating Model T.

Posted: **Tue Mar 07, 2023 1:21 pm**

I think water pumps on later Ts got their start as a way to prevent radiator freeze ups in cold regions and perhaps to enhance cooling in hot regions and high elevation regions.

Posted: **Tue Mar 07, 2023 3:34 pm**

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes, that way when you do criticize them, you're a mile away and
you have their shoes!

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