MTFCA Forum

I have two 1914 T runabouts. One I restored and one the late, great Ed Messenger restored. My question concerns the front fender style. Pictured is the ‘shallow’ lip and pronounced bill lip. Both have, what I believe, is the correct 4 rivet fender iron bracket.. Your thoughts ?

According to the encyclopedia, both are correct for 1914.

Fifty or more years ago, the accepted consensus of opinion was that the (late style) front fenders with the four rivet brackets on top and the large bill on the front edge were non-Ford replacement fenders! Many hobbyists dutifully removed them and replaced them with the "no bill" front fenders believing that they were the only thing that was correct. I was already looking for late brass era pieces, and being kid on a budget was willing to use them myself. I probably personally spoke with twenty different people that had removed the "billed" fenders and when I inquired about buying them was told they had sent them out for scrap because they were wrong and nobody should ever use them!
Back in the 1950s and 1960s, most of what the hobby "knew" about model Ts and other antique automobiles came from people's faulty memories. Fortunately, Bruce McCalley and many others began serious research into various records (including era photographs) and began sorting out the truth! I personally saw a dozen or more "early" 1915s that owners swore had been built around September or October of 1914. It was NOT known that the 1915 open car style was delayed for months or that both 1914 style and 1915 style were being produced at the same time for four full months!
It has finally been pretty much accepted that the later style "four rivet" full bill front fenders were essentially a transitional fender! They were used for months on both the later 1914 style open cars, as well as the earlier 1915 style open cars.
I doubt we shall ever pin down a starting or ending date for them. But before well meaning hobbyists removed these fenders from nice original survivor cars, there were literally hundreds of survivor cars from late summer 1914 into May 1915 and even one car I knew was a June of 1915 touring car with one four rivet and one three rivet front fender (a very nice original car with one 1950s repaint and otherwise mostly undamaged condition!).

The truth is, that a lot of people's 1914 open cars were actually built during Ford's 1915 fiscal year! Whether they should be called 1914s or 1915s will always be a touchy subject! And quite frankly, I don't care if someone wants to call their March 1915 built 1914 style touring car a 1914. If it were mine? I would call it a 1915! Mostly because I love the history and like telling the story of that bizarre transition.

Sadly, the hobby did the same mistake with the engines on those transitional late 1914 style open cars! When I was just getting started in this hobby, I saw and talked with the owners of more than a dozen 1914 open model Ts that had had engines with casting dates and serial numbers from November 1914 into March of 1915.Firmly believing that the engine MUST have been changed at some point, and wanting their car to be "right"? They had or were planning to change the engine to an earlier 1914 engine. They believed they were doing the right thing, when in fact, they were most likely erasing a historic detail.

Regardless. Both styles front fenders are correct for the 1914 style open cars! To be proper about it, all earlier 1914s should have the "no bill" front fenders! Whereas later 1914 style open cars (regardless of 1914 or 1915 fiscal year???) would have most likely had the "billed" front fenders with four rivet brackets. Cars with the odd late 1914 style oil sidelamps with the full brackets riveted onto the lamps should have likely had the billed front fenders also. I did zoom in close on your photo. It looks like both of them have the standard earlier style sidelamps and brackets?

Without knowing the full history of a given car? Whether the front fenders were ever replaced, back in the day or by recent reproduction fenders? Anything could be on a given car.

Both of your cars are beautiful! How do you decide which one to take for a ride or tour?

Wayne before my fire I had a very early 15 that had 14 style front and rear fenders. Like you said so many people told me that the roadster rear fenders were rounded. Bought some very expensive originals in the rounded style. I know that you are right. The family that had the roadster found a picture of it with their family member who bought it new & sent me a copy. Yep the 14 style fenders were on it, front & back. Best John

Wow ! Thanks for the in-depth treatise on correct 1914 fenders Wayne. I restored the one on the left from an original that was beyond preservation. As stated, a 5 time AACA Senior First winner - Ed Messenger - restored the one on the right. However, this ‘14 wasn’t one of them. The left is a 21914 engine and the other is a 62014 engine. Left T has an aluminum crank handle and other has a cast iron crank handle. According to the encyclopedia, on 4 April 1914 Accession 575, the Ford Archives revealed the crank handle change from aluminum to cast iron.

I have one of those freak 15's Wayne mentions.
My early 15 roadster, (Late October motor, looks like a 14 cowl wise) has the eyebrows & curved rear fenders. (as 15's do)
but the front fenders have 4 rivets. Past consensuses claimed they should be 3 rivets.
I constantly am told the fenders are incorrect for my "14"
This T has a 13 rear end with the 2 piece drive shaft.
I believe this T to be correct as from the factory since it is a wide track & shifting parts on these scarce models is much less likely.
The motor is still a std/std crank. Must have been low mileage.

P.S. Who needs TWO 14 roadsters? I'm jealous.

I do not scrap old car parts.

Strange things happened during those several months. Years ago, a good friend had a 1915 runabout, restored from a very solid original car (should have been preserved, not restored, but that is how it was in those days). The car had 1914 style rear fenders, and was known by the previous owner to have been that way almost since new! That car was restored with its apparently original 1914 style rear fenders! Oh, the restorer and the subsequent owner I knew took a bit of flack over that! They both took it in stride and were early believers in "not all fords were exactly alike"!

Era photos showing 1914 cars with 1915 rear fenders or the reverse 1915 cars with 1914 rear fenders are somewhat rare, however I have seen both combinations. Oddly, they are almost always on runabouts and not touring cars. I clearly recall seeing one 1915 runabout in a dealer's showroom with the 1914 fenders on it. I don't know if I have a copy of it or not, will look later.

One possibility to remember, that is rarely considered? When cars were shipped to dealers partially knocked down (a common practice at the time!)? Dealers often for a short time, had models of both years on hand. The dealer or his men could simply install wrong year rear fenders on some of them. That could explain a few of the odd fendered cars, both survivors and era photographs!

As for some of those that argue for cars to be restored or shown EXACTLY how they left the factory? Perhaps they should be restored to partially knocked down with fenders and windshields in the back seat and bodies only half bolted on?

For 100-point correctness, be sure to add a heavy coat of Detroit fly ash!