MTFCA Forum

Commutator wire retainers are shown in Lang's catalog (5033B) page 77. Should I use these? They hold the wires, but what are they attached to?

With more pictures https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/3 ... 1381766989

They just fit under the nuts that retain the wires. They were on my unrestored '22 Centerdoor so I guess Henry thought they were a good idea but since they fell apart when I replaced the wiring harness and I didn't replace them I guess they are not necessary. I don't have them on any of my other cars either.

You certainly need these installed as they are there for a reason.
Factory #2124A Commutator Wire Terminal Retainer introduced in 1921 and two are required. This part addresses a common problem with Timer to coilbox wiring (near the Timer) chafing and shorting to adjacent bare metal and also forms the wire routing and relieves the strain on the wires to the timer terminals which break from constantly moving when the timer case rotates.
If you don't use them you risk the possibility to develop a short to ground in the timer wiring because these are not installed the coil will exceed its duty cycle and cause the problem shown in the attached photo. When the tar boils out the top of the counterbore on the wooden coil top it also jams the points closed exacerbating the heating process. Don't use them at your peril.
Ron Patterson

The 1928 parts book shows them for 1921 to 1927. I have yet to see one in the wild! lol
Maybe back in the day when these cars were being driven every day, chafing on the wire behind the timing rod might have been an issue, not so much today.

If ya don't use them as I don't for no real.reason, inspect, inspect, inspect! I check things over frequently and thoroughly during oil changes when the car is up on the lift.

Tim
If a timer terminal wire shorts to ground and you drive 25 miles on a warm day one of your coils will look like the photo I supplied.
Good luck
Ron Patterson

Ron Patterson wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 11, 2023 12:37 pm

Tim
If a timer terminal wire shorts to ground and you drive 25 miles on a warm day one of your coils will look like the photo I supplied.
Good luck
Ron Patterson

I did not see your post till after I came back from looking up the dates in the parts book and posted mine.

I must say I was ignorant to the issue/part until recently. Full credit to this forum.
I dont run roller timers. If I did, I would use this insulator part. Why not?
Henry deemed it necessary enough to bear the cost(must be necessary. Remember cutting bits of a penny per car was an art form)
& its cheap insurance against shorting.

Can these retainers be used on a New Day timer?

I'm sure these wire retainers properly installed can be used on all timers.... I made my own retainers out of an old leather belt.

BLB27 wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 11, 2023 3:01 pm

Can these retainers be used on a New Day timer?

No. The terminals are totally different. However a similar functioning insulator strip could be made.
You would have to add tabs to be bent 90 degrees @ the 2 terminal ends. But that is a doable idea.

If you don't use them you risk the possibility to develop a short to ground in the timer wiring because these are not installed the coil will exceed its duty cycle and cause the problem shown in the attached photo.

Timer wire retainers and/or a 4A fuse in series with the coil box power wire are good safe guards against wiring faults. That said, Wow! How the heck was that coil adjusted so the duty cycle caused thermal runaway and melt down? Gosh!

A properly adjusted Model T coil, tuned for equal and consistent Firing Time, will NOT overheat or melt the tar out if left buzzing continuously on 6V or even 12V battery for a long time in my experience. Here is how I know: viewtopic.php?t=20556#p157543

Tar boiling out the top of a Model T ford ignition coil is only tangentially related to coil point adjustment.
As the self appointed Model T ignition system expert (and pitchman for your products on this forum) perhaps someday you will figure it out?

As the self appointed Model T ignition system expert (and pitchman for your products on this forum) perhaps someday you will figure it out?

So says the legendary FP forum pitchman from days of ol who goes by the moniker "Coilman"...... I DID figure it out! By actually studying and testing Model T coil operation rather extensively. Did you bother to view the link I posted? 102F after 10 minutes buzzing continuously.
Proper coil adjustment really is not all that complicated and would be happy to discuss the technical details and dispel the myths further for the benefit of others here if you can leave the personal animus and snide comments out.