The 14 T is driving me nuts , starting mystery ...

[dobro1956]

The 14 speedster is driving me nuts. I know, "its not a long trip", but bear with me ... This is something totally new that I have never heard of before. ...

I removed the 1919 engine that came in the 14 speedster to use as a doner engine for the "1919 speedster project" that I have been working on for the last several years. I replaced that 1919 engine with a "known" 1927 engine that I had. That 27 engine is one that came in another car that we used for tours. When in the other car, I did a valve job, replaced the solid lifters with adjustable lifters, and generally did a complete go-over of the engine. It ran very well in the other car but there was a small crack in the block at the timing cover that leaked some oil, not bad, but just enough to annoy me. Other than the oil leak the engine ran very, very, well. The engine was too good of an engine to part out, So I did a complete overhaul of another engine to replace the one with the crack and small oil leak for our "tour car"

I mention all of the above to show that the engine I am now dealing with is a known good running engine, from a car that I have driven many times.

So now to my problem ... I now have the 27 engine in the 14 speedster and have it running. It runs very well, but the first "cold start" is a fight ...
The only changes made during the swap into the 14 speedster is adding a Bosch front plate distributor that was on the 1919 engine that came with the 14 speedster and a "Cyclone" brand combination manifold. I completely re-built the Bosch, and the "Cyclone" manifold is perfectly straight and is installed with new rings and glands.

I do not have a starter and I am "hand cranking" as I hope to not have a starter to more appear like a 14 era car.

When I try to "cold start" the car, it does not "hit" or "fire" at all. I hand choke several times and nothing. So thinking it could be "no fire" to the plugs I pull #1 spark plug. The plug looks "dry", so I prime the cylinder, re-install the plug and crank, crank, crank, still nothing. So I pull the plug again, and lay the plug on the head to check for fire at the plug. A couple pulls on the crank and the engine fires right up on 3 cylinders and #1 plug is just laying on the head firing a big blue spark ... Great ...!!! all is well ... (or so I thought). I re-install the plug, and one pull of the crank and the engine fires right up... runs perfectly, and throttles very well, and the spark control lever does everything it should. Advancing and retarding the spark just like it should. I kill the engine and it starts on one pull only, every time. I can literally crank it with "one finger". Several hours later the engine still starts easily .

So next morning I try to start the engine again, It will not start. I choke it, crank, crank, crank, nothing. So I pull the plug lay it on the head and the damn thing starts right up on three cylinders with #1 plug laying on the head. I immediately kill the engine, replace the plug, and with one pull the engine fires right up. ????? It starts up every time for the next several hours.

So today, I try it again, It will not start, crank, crank, crank, .... Pull #1 plug lay it on the head and the darn thing starts again with #1 plug laying on the head ... ???? Is my car possessed ??? .....

I have many years of working on model Ts, this is something I have no answer for .... ...??????? I do not even have a clue .......

Here is the possessed engine

[Ruxstel24]

My hunch is you are choking too much.
Try key off, 1/4 turn with choke. Release choke, key on and try it.
Looks like an NH, before I swapped mine, it would often fire up and stall cold without choking at all.

[Scottio]

Bad ground? Maybe in the distributor?

[Steve Jelf]

Check your NH float adjustment. My 1923 with a fresh engine was doing the same thing. Easy start when warmed up, near impossible when cold. It was flooding. With the float adjusted correctly it's an easy start, warm or cold.

[Wreckrod]

Sounds like too much fuel. Try starting next time without choking, and open the throttle up twice as much as you normally would, 1-2 pulls, then close throttle a notch, 1-2 pulls, repeat. I’ll be surprised if it doesn’t start a lot sooner than you expect it to (be ready to close throttle without running all the way around to steering wheel so engine doesn’t rev to the moon).

[HalSched]

Not all Ts are the same.

Here's my method: (Gas in the tank and turned on)

1/4 turn open on the needle valve (about1full turn open from closed)
Spark lever up (Is it timed right?)
Throttle down 3/4 to 1 inch
Switch to Bat
2 "up pulls" while choking
Mine will start within the next 4 pulls on the crank (usually 2)

[dobro1956]

The carb is a recent re-build that I carry as a spare cab in the tour car, I also use it to check other peoples cars with. Has been doing OK on other engines. but Ill try some different settings for this engine. Each time I remove the plug, it appears to be dry. That is why I primed it. I have also tried it without priming. So far I have been unable to start it cold without the #1 plug removed ...??

The distributor is fresh. clean, has new tune up parts, ect. The heads of the Bosch distributors, and also other brands of distributors rotate in the housing for spark advance. That is not a good ground situation, so the Bosch has a dedicated ground wire from the rotating head to the stationary front plate casting.(engine block). The ground wire is new and is freshly cleaned and installed.

The one thing I am unsure of is the "Cyclone" manifold. Im very sure it is sealed well, and no leaks at the gaskets. All sealing surfaces were almost NOS condition ... But I do not know how well it "breathes". I have held the choke till the carb drips gas out the carb, so Im assuming it is able to pull in fuel OK. There was a priming cup added to the manifold for #1 & #2 cylinders by someone in the past. ?????

The strange thing (to me) is that after it starts (cold), I instantly kill the engine, replace the plug, and it starts the first pull with little to no effort.

So, back to the shop I go to try out the suggestions ........

[Altair]

I think your issue is fuel and you will get it eventually, on my 27 the fuel mixture knob is fussy, to start one full turn and to run 7/8 turn. If I forget to reset it to one turn on the next start and it is at 7/8 it will not start. Every T is a little bit different at this point, you will have to find your sweet spot(s). I had started my car on several occasions with no issues, however on one particular day there was nothing happening, I had moved the levers to their respective positions and the mixture knob only to eventually discover there had been some two legged gremlins in the car that had reset the controls. My assumption that I had opened the fuel mixture knob one turn was actually several turns open. It took about 10 minutes of frustrating cranking before I discovered the fuel problem and now I have it flooded. Left it for about an hour to dry up and all was normal again. In the day there were machine shop machinists and tune up shops, a good machinist may not be a good tune up man and a good tune up man may not be a good machinist. However we sometimes try to be both.

[John kuehn]

Halsched has sound advice.
Not all T’s start the same. Close but not quite.
I have 3 black era T’s and all have slightly different carb settings and spark settings. And again close but not quite.
All have NH carbs and new parts. One floods easier than the others. Another won’t start unless you choke it a certain way and so on.
One thing I have noticed they all start easier when the tank has 2-3 gallons of gas or more.
Good luck with yours.

[dobro1956]

Im still thinking it is fuel, but I can not see how it could be the carb. I am not new to rebuilding NH carbs. I have done dozens of them, all with good results. Just for the hell of it I removed the carb and checked it out. Everything was as it should be... Again, this is a known engine and a known carb. I believe the Cyclone" manifold may be the issue, but I do not know why ...

I tried all forms of setting combinations today. All with no results, Not even a "burp".

I tried 'no choke", Then "choke the hell out of it" then "more spark, and less spark", and "more throttle at the lever", also "a little less and a little more high speed jet opening", I tried priming it again at the intake primer cup, I also primed it at the #1 spark plug, Not a sign of life anywhere. Then I removed #1 plug, laid it on the head to check spark (again). I pulled the crank a couple times, one cylinder at a time, till it fired the plug, then the next crank, the damn thing started with #1 plug laying on the head. I stopped the engine immediately, It did not run 5 seconds. I installed #1 plug back into the head and the engine started with one pull of the crank, This thing is possessed. What does having #1 plug out off the head have to do with starting ... ?????

What is so darn weird about this is, after it starts, it is the best sounding, and smoothest running engine I own ... It also is so darn easy to start after the first cold start. It "literally" starts with the pull of one finger. But let it cool off, and nothing .....

Ill try again tomorrow .... Thanks for the input guys. Its good to have a place to vent and cry .

[George House]

“ i trank, trank an trank an the sumbit don’t tart ... I think I read that line in uncle Stan’s book

[Henry K. Lee]

As Les Schubert would say, “Assume Nothing, Recheck Everything”!

Hope you find the little bad pixie.

All the Best,

Hank

[HaroldRJr]

I keep looking at that brass "gizmo" that's screwed into portion of the intake manifold that feeds number #1 and #2 cylinders. Doesn't seem like this could be related to your starting problem, but I'm wondering if you might have a vacuum leak due to that "gizmo" that somehow interferes with proper "flow" within the intake manifold.

As an "aside" here, before anybody make an "issue" of the unconventional accessory one-piece combination intake/exhaust manifold, I use a WILMO combination manifold on one of my T's, and I remember that Royce Peterson uses an ANCO combination manifold on one of his T's. In my case, my WILMO combination manifold works very well and Royce said the same thing about his ANCO combination manifold. FWIW,.....harold

[Tim Williams]

could it be some sort of a vapor lock? Just a shot in the dark.

[Scott_Conger]

I'm with Harold. I'd plug everything that can be plugged and try it. Then I'd replace the manifold with stock. #1 plug out is a red-herring, I think. You're not getting fuel to the cylinders easily, but once it fires and runs, the vacuum is high enough to prime the engine for the next start. Big vacuum leak somewhere, or such a tortured path with the cyclone, that it is a tough starter.

[Charlie B in N.J.]

Compression test. Classic low comp when cold symptoms. Too low to start cold. Pull a plug and it's easier to crank & off you go.

[Scott_Conger]

Why would a "known good running engine" suffer suddenly from low compression with the change of ignition and manifold?

[kmatt]

Donnie, That brass thing at #1- #2 intake is odd, it could have been installed by someone due to past hard start problems. It could be something like a crack in the manifold in the common cast wall between intake and exhaust towards the front of the manifold, the heat riser wall. When the engine is cold this crack is disrupting the proper intake flow at slow hand cranking speed. Try replacing the manifold with a known good stock intake and exhaust manifold. If that doesn't fix the problem you can still leave the stock manifolds on the engine.

[dobro1956]

It probably will be a couple days till I get to play with the T again. More than likely Ill put some stock manifolds on to see if the problem goes away. That seems like the "next step"

The two "brass gizmoes" on the "Cyclone" are a priming cup and a plug installed where some other item had been installed in the past. More than likely the "plug" is where another "primer" of some type was installed. ?? Both items do not leak. I have tested both of them for leaks. By placing some gas in the priming cup when it is in the closed position and the engine is running, there should be bubbles or gas should be sucked into the engine if there is a leak. There is no sign of a leak. I have also checked the plug (gizmo) for leaks by spraying WD-40 around the plug. If there is any leak, the engine will speed up or the WD-40 will be sucked into the engine. I also checked the rings and glands that seal the manifold to the block. No sign of a leak at any place.

When the engine was in the other car, I did a complete "go-over" of the engine. The cylinder walls were perfect, rings looked good, I did a valve job, I installed adjustable lifters, replaced all the gaskets I could without removing the engine, Timing gears and cam were almost perfect, The only issue with the engine was the small crack at the timing cover that leaked some oil. I drove the engine in the car for almost a year with no problems other than the small oil leak. It is one of my better running engines. That is why I did not part it out, but instead, I rebuilt another engine for our "tour car" . The engine would "free start" 90% of the time when in the other car...

The thing that really confuses me is "why" the engine starts with the plug laying on the head ????

I even installed a one gallon gas tank at the height of the top of the windshield. Just to make sure there is no "flow problem" with the other tank and lines. That will give me more "fuel pressure" and flow, than any model T gas tank would ever have ... It did not change a thing ...

I also did not mention that the spark plugs are NOS Champion X plugs. I have moved them to different cylinders to make sure that #1 is not a bad plug ... did not change a thing .....

In a couple days Ill tackle the problem again ... Thanks again for the input ...

[kmatt]

Donnie, You could try a cold engine hand cranked start with #4 or #3 plug removed and see if it fires on three cylinders. If it acts like the cold all four plugs in, no start, then I think it is something to due with that combo manifold. You said that all four plugs are known to be good. By removing #1 plug, thus no compression, intake, or exhaust, from #1. The cold engine start problem is bypassed and once a little warm the problem goes away. It would be interesting to know if this problem happens at the starter cranked speed. The only thing I could suggest before removing combo manifold is to add another ground wire from engine to frame and distributor to engine and give it a try.

[Duey_C]

Silly thought from left field. Perhaps try opening the contact points just a few thou or perhaps try a different coil?
You shut it OFF after starting on three but do you suppose the coil has had enough time to get its juices flowing (warmed slightly) and is ready to work with the distributer whilst you're putting the plug in? (ie. Some thing very slightly amiss betwixt the two)
? Maybe?

[kmatt]

Duey is correct in that it could be the coil or the points. Back in high school auto shop in 1971 preparing for the trouble shooting contest we had a 302 Ford engine on a engine stand that the shop teacher had done many things to. We had access to replacement parts; needed parts, not needed parts, and parts that looked good but that were bad. It was two person teams and timed, we went through every thing done to that engine and it would not run right if it tried to start at all. Times Up, and the shop teacher went and checked every thing to see what we missed. He came back and said that it should run, you got everything, including the bad new parts, and it should run. Later the shop teacher came back and told us he found the problem. When we had changed out the bad points that were wrong for that engine, bad new parts, we held the point fixed mount screw with a captive screw driver and put the good points in, leaving the Ford type point ground wire under the points and not on top, under the screw head as we should have done. The result was a intermittent ground and a intermittent spark or no spark. Thanks Duey for bringing back a high school memory.

[D Stroud]

Donnie, I just thought of something. I haven't reread the whole thread and maybe this has been discussed, but you mentioned having a distributer. As you probably know, a condenser can cause all kinds of problems that can mimick all kinds of other problems. Just a thought. Keep us informed!! Dave

[dobro1956]

I may be able to get back to the shop tomorrow. ?? Some good thoughts on the electrical side of the equation...

To "power up" the ignition I have used a jumper wire direct from a 12 volt battery, directly to ground (head bolt) and a jumper wire to the plus (+) terminal of the 12 volt coil. or I have just used my battery charger on 12 volt as a power source. Either way seems to be the same and no improvement.

I do not know how to test a condencer, but they can cause problems ...??? I would have to order another one from Langs to fit the Bosch distributor. I may order another set of points, condenser, rotor, and cap just to keep as spares and have to use now, for testing. That would take several days to get here, but I may try that first, before I remove the "Cyclone" manifold. I really want to use the "Cyclone" and I see no reason for it not to work ... But it is on the list of things to check out ....

As said before, I have been working on Ts for over 40 years, plus all kinds of other motorized things. I can usually "reason" my way through any problem. I have always prided myself with the fact that I usually fix "other folks problems". But this thing about "why" it only wants to cold start with the #1 plug laying on the head has me totally at a loss ... for "why"

Tomorrow is another new day, Ill approach the issue from some different angle to see what happens ... Thanks again for the support ..

[TRDxB2]

Since you changed the manifold and ignition it is no longer the "known good running engine" . Different perspective - since you can get it started with plug #1 out and see it sparking I would eliminate electrical and fuel system issues. The reason I say that is if the #1 plug fires while out and the engine starts - the electrical system isn't smart enough to know the difference. So I'd focus on what effect the open plug hole might have on a cold engine. Would it affect the air / fuel mixture? Would it eliminate a vacuum leak? How would it effect chocking? What carburation does the "Cyclone" intake manifold require (couldn't tell if you ran this before)? Is the NH providing enough air / fuel at startup?
You could also eliminate concerns about the brass priming cup by removing it and plugging up the hole. Hope this helps

[GrandpaFord]

The number 1 spark plug being out is ionizing the air which helps with the combustion.

[George Andreasen]

Coming in at the tail end here........yes, a condenser (capacitor) can go bad, most certainly so and cause all kinds of havoc. There's a crude but simple way to test this. What color is your spark when the plug is outside the engine? Is it "fat" and blue, or sort of white and spindly looking? If the latter, replace the condenser and test again.

[John kuehn]

If I remember, one of the posters who is on the forum pretty often had an issue with starting his T. He checked everything over and over then went back again to no avail.
His T had a good set of Champion X plugs in it that had worked fine.
Then the no start issue. As a last ditch effort he bought a set of motorcraft plugs and his T started right up.
Anything can happen I guess.

[TRDxB2]

One thing to try - with the engine setup to do a successful cold start (#1 plug out and connected to show spark) with another plug in #1 to plug up the hole (don't connect it to ignition system). 2:1 it will not start unless you take the dummy plug out

[dobro1956]

Had a little time to work in the shop again.

Yesterday I tried a cold start and no luck. Crank, crank, crank, .... nothing. So I reset the points to .018 and tried again, No luck with the new setting. I have had the points set at .015 and it seems to be OK when warm. So I reset them to .015.

Then I tried to start it with #1 plug out on the head and the hole plugged with a dummy plug. It fired right up.... TRD, you would have lost the bet at 2 to 1 odds . So it seems like the hole being open is not the issue ....

Later that day after it cooled off I tried the test of removing #3 plug after another no start when cold. I laid it on the head with the hole open and two cranks it fired right up ??????? So the weird start issue just moved to #3 plug and seems like it does not just apply to #1

Then today when my son came by, we went out to double team it. We did the crank, crank, crank, thing and no luck. Tried choke, no choke, spark adjustments, throttle adjustments, ect. We pulled the plug to look at it. It still seemed dry to us. So just for the heck of it I opened the high speed needle up one more full turn. It has been running best at 1-1/4 turns open. That is a little more open than most engines use. I usually find that 3/4 to 1 turn open is normal on the carbs I have rebuilt. So with the needle open 2-1/4 turns I got the first cold start . I had to turn it back to 1-1/4 turns open to get it to settle down after warming up a bit.

This evening after it had cooled off again, I tried it at just 2 turns open and no luck, I opened it up to the 2-1/4 turns and it cold started. So I may be finally finding the "sweet spot" I have never worked on a car or carb that needed 2-1/4 turns open to start. Im wondering if the "Cyclone" manifold needs the carb jet to be "very rich" to start and then "leaner" to run. ??? I have never ran a combination manifold before, but they were designed to run the poor quality gas of the time ... So maybe they have different needs as to settings ... ????

I think I see the light at the end of the tunnel .... thanks for all the input and support.

[Wreckrod]

Lol someone here has said before: 90% of electrical problems are really fuel issues.

I will be really interest to see if your new starting procedure works consistently whenever car is cold.

Also, not sarcastically, but having my own speedster without a starter, I wish there was some mechanism to simulate crank starting the car, without having to physically do the cranking work. When it’s just fighting you and you’re trying different things, it’s exhausting pulling the crank over and over and over again. You don’t want an actual starter cause that would spin the engine too fast. Which means you might or might not have things figured out correctly for when you do crank it by hand.

[dobro1956]

.
Just wanted to do one more post before I let this rest.

I tried another cold start today at the "normal, for this engine, carb jet settings" (1-1/4 turn open) and no luck. So I opened the main jet one more full turn. (2-1/4 turns open) It started the second pull. After about 10 - 15 seconds the engine started laboring a little. So I turned the needle back to 1-1/4 turns open and it settled right down to a perfect sounding engine. (as perfect as a T can be ) I guess I finally have found its sweet spot to start and then run.

In all my years of working on Ts, I have never had or seen a T engine that needs the carb needle 2-1/4 turns open to start. It must have something to do with the way the "Cyclone" intake breaths. ???? Who knows ?? So for now we (me and the T) have found our "happy place" Thanks again ....

[otrcman]

Donnie, I'm still struggling to understand what difference having one plug removed could make. Do you suppose you were simply able to spin the engine a little faster and that additional suction through the carb enabled better choking action ?

You didn't mention it (or maybe I missed it), but is this the same "known" carb that you had used previously ? Did you overhaul it or otherwise work on it before installing on the current engine ? I'm wondering if the choke plate isn't quite closing off to give you a strong suction ?

Dick

[John kuehn]

The 1 1/4” carb setting for Model T’s are meant to be for a stock engine setup I would think.
When changing the carb, intake system and etc things might change to my mind as far as settings go.
That’s just my opinion of course.

[dobro1956]

Dick, I am at a loss for "why" the plug being removed made any difference. It may be one of those things we never know ?? I do not "spin" a T engine to hand crank it. I do a 1/4 turn pull up and that is it. It is possible to pull the 1/4 turn quickly but not to spin it the way I hand crank. I have seen folks grab the handle and try to spin the engine a couple revolutions, but I only pull it up "one spark at a time". If my engines do not start with a 1/4 turn pull, I want to find out why ....

A starter motor may have started the engine by being able to spin it and suck in more gas at the 1-1/4 turn needle setting. ?????? But I do not have a starter installed on the engine, so I can not say if it would have helped or not.

The carb is the same carb I always use for testing other folks cars and it is my "spare" carb I carry on tours. It has never failed me before ... and I did open it up and inspect the inside, just to make sure it was still OK. The choke plate is in perfect order.

I plan on rebuilding an Air Friction carb to use as the permanent carb for this 14 speedster. I have never rebuilt an Air Friction before, or even ran one of them. Very few folks have a car with an Air Friction carb. even though thousands of them appear to have been sold and ran. So I wanted to make sure everything is right with this engine and that the distributor as well as the Cyclone manifold is running OK before I wade off into some unknown carb adventure .

It appears to me that the "Cyclone" manifold may need a very rich setting of the jet when cold. ?? and then more of a "normal" setting when hot. But that is just speculation on my part ...

I did another cold start this evening. I opened the jet 2-1/4 turns and it started on the third pull, without choking it any. The temps were about 85 degrees today, so no choke is really needed. after a few seconds I set it back to 1-1/4 turns and it runs very well. After being warmed up, I can start it with one finger pulling the crank its 1/4 turn. I have the idle screw set to a low idle, with the throttle fully closed and the timing retarded fully, you can almost count the cylinders firing. I do not usually run the engine at that low of a rpm, as its not really good on the crankshaft, but if it will "count them off", that is about as good as I can get a T to run. So for now we are at a "happy place" in the hills of Arkansas.

[Norman Kling]

Next time this happens, leave the plug in and wait about the same amount of time it would take to remove the plug and lay it on the head. Then try starting it again. If it starts, the problem is not in the ignition.

You didn't say, whether or not you turned off the gas when it was parked, and then turned it on again before you started it, but This is what I think might have happened if you did turn off and on the gas. When it was off, the gas in the carburetor drained out. Just a very small leak around the nut at the bottom which holds on the bowl could overnight drain the float bowl. Then when you turned on the gas, it took a while to fill the bowl up again. Result, you had no gas when you first tried to start it, but after a few minutes the float chamber filled up.

That might not be what's causing the problem, but worth checking.
Norm

[James Mike Rogers]

My theory for why the engine starts with a plug out is, By removing the plug, that cylinder drops out of the system. By removing this cylinder and it's draw on the carb and intake allows the remaining cylinder on that intake runner to get a double shot and enrichen the mix and start. This is why it doesn't matter which plug is removed. JMHO.