Clutch Adjustment Question?

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Fozz71
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Clutch Adjustment Question?

Post by Fozz71 » Fri May 10, 2019 10:28 am

Working on adjusting the clutch on my '22 after new back brakes (car not running when purchased) so here's what I am getting:

1. I adjusted the brake rods to be sure the back wheels spin freely when handbrake is vertical and firm when brake is pulled back.

2. However, when the car is running, the engine labors when hand-brake is pulled back and wants to stall- wheels do not stop spinning fast.
When jacked up, the wheels spin fast in neutral and when brake is pulled.

What does this sound like, like my clutch is out of adjustment? Turn down the bolt on the cam? Ideas?

Thanks,
Jim


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Re: Clutch Adjustment Question?

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri May 10, 2019 11:01 am

You may or may not have noticed this at this point in your discovery of T idiosyncracies, but when depressing the clutch pedal, first the shaft simply rotates (this is releasing the high speed clutch pack), and then there will be a slight increased resistance to rotation and will start moving sideways as it rotates (it is moving into the transmission space to squeeze the low band and lock in low gear).

To fix the specific problem you are describing:

When you sit in the car and slowly depress the clutch...JUST at the point where you feel this resistance and the shaft wants to move IN, stop depressing and pull the handbrake back. The cam should JUST slide under the clutch lever bolt. If you must depress further to clear the bolt, you are trying to bind up low gear and if you are able to let off the pedal for the bolt to settle on the cam, you are trying to lock up high gear. Either of these will cause the car to labor when the handbrakes are set.

This all assumes that you actually HAVE a neutral set in the transmission and this is it's own set of adjustments.

Do NOT go crazy adjusting things. There are a million wrong combinations of settings and only 1 correct one to attain neutral. Notice that the below description is for "Free Neutral" only! The bolt is mentioned ONLY insofaras the hand lever must be forward such that it will not contact the bolt in any way. I do not think at this point you have a "neutral" problem in the transmission...only that you are not "getting there" when the brake is applied. If I am wrong, then here is the description to set neutral.

Free Neutral a.jpg
Free Neutral b.jpg
Scott Conger

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Re: Clutch Adjustment Question?

Post by Allan » Sat May 11, 2019 6:07 am

Jim, strange as it may seem, adjusting the handbrake when the car is in 'neutral', with the clutch dis-engaged, is not necessarily the way to go. When you let the handbrake lever forward to engage top gear, the brake rods push back and the cam which activates the shoes is rotated somewhat. If your emergency brake is in good order, this may be enough to make it drag.
I adjust mine with the lever fully forward as in top gear. The rod is adjusted to be as long as possible so that the lever at the backing plate is pushed back as far as possible, consistent with there being no drag on the brake shoes. Then when the handbrake lever is brought to neutral position, the cam lever at the back transitions from one side of the actuating cam to somewhere near flat. Further pulling on the handbrake brings the cam into further rotation, on the opposite side of the cam. The end result is an absolutely free handbrake in top gear, with a little more travel in the lever to fully engage the brake.

None of this necessarily applies if your emengency brake shoes and drums are worn. In such cases, adjusting in neutral will work, the rotation of the cam when top gear is used just takes up some of the slack in the system.

Allan from down under


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Re: Clutch Adjustment Question?

Post by rickd » Sat May 11, 2019 8:01 am

Jim, if its still archived Royce Peterson has an excellent primer on clutch adjustment on his site modeltfordfix from August 2017. I keep that article and the article Scott sent you on adjusting for a (sort of) free neutral in a binder in my shop so I don't start overthinking clutch adjustment.


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Re: Clutch Adjustment Question?

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat May 11, 2019 9:52 am

Allan

outstanding! I completely ignored the effect of too-long brake rods going over-center with brake lever fully forward! I have seen this several times on cars being put back on the road after many years and am ashamed to say that I never considered it in my remarks. Very good point.
Scott Conger

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Re: Clutch Adjustment Question?

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat May 11, 2019 1:13 pm

Just back from town, cleared head and now don't think brakes have a thing to do with it as the original complaint was engine bogging down with brake applied, not dragging while driving. I need to curb my enthusiasm on that line of thinking!

Jim
when it's fixed, be sure to come back with the results of your trouble-shooting.
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Re: Clutch Adjustment Question?

Post by Fozz71 » Sat May 11, 2019 3:45 pm

Thanks and yes, you are correct, the car is free-wheeling in neutral and no drag on the rear wheels.

My issue is the car bogging down when the handbrake is pulled all the way back, and even in neutral the wheels spin quickly.

The car sat for about 15 years before I bought it, so any chance the clutch can be stuck?

**I think I located Royce's article here: https://modeltfordfix.com/adjusting-the ... nd-clutch/


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Re: Clutch Adjustment Question?

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat May 11, 2019 4:01 pm

You state that it is free-wheeling in neutral and also say it bogs the engine down when in neutral. Those are different results from what you state is the same condition.

I believe you are saying that you can hold the car in neutral with the clutch, but when you attempt to use the handbrake, and your foot is off the left-hand pedal (clutch), the car bogs down.

Have I defined what is happening?

If that is the case, reread my previous post.

If I have not defined what is happening, and that is NOT the case, you will have to be more specific for anyone to help.
Scott Conger

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Re: Clutch Adjustment Question?

Post by Fozz71 » Sat May 11, 2019 10:42 pm

Scott-

1. when hand brake is vertical the rear wheels spin
2. when handbrake is pulled back, the engine bogs down

Thanks,
Jim


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Re: Clutch Adjustment Question?

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat May 11, 2019 11:07 pm

That is 1/2 of the answer.

What happens when you depress the clutch pedal 1/2 way and you step on the brake?

Either Your high clutch is stuck, or your transmission lever bolt is adjusted too short.
When you sit in the car and slowly depress the clutch...JUST at the point where you feel this resistance and the shaft wants to move IN, stop depressing and pull the handbrake back. The cam should JUST slide under the clutch lever bolt. If you must depress further to clear the bolt, you are trying to bind up low gear and if you are able to let off the pedal for the bolt to settle on the cam, you are trying to lock up high gear. Either of these will cause the car to labor when the handbrakes are set.
Have you made any attempt at all of following the bolt adjustment or neutral adjustment advise?
Scott Conger

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Re: Clutch Adjustment Question?

Post by Adam » Sun May 12, 2019 7:51 am

My guess is he is running it on jack stands and hasn’t yet drained and refilled the 15+ year old oil. It’s the only way he could get those results.

Or, possibly the transmission driven gear shaft is fractured.


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Re: Clutch Adjustment Question?

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun May 12, 2019 8:04 am

Agreed

Frustrating to get one piece of key info once a day and no input as to what diagnostics or work is being done.
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Re: Clutch Adjustment Question?

Post by Fozz71 » Sun May 12, 2019 11:22 am

The car is indeed on jack stands out of a concern for safety, but the oil was changed immediately and it is fresh. I did notice that the pawl for the transmission lever bolt was a little worn, and I may need to turn that down a bit. It is as though the trans is not disengaging as it should.

I went back and checked the pedal position and the distance from when it bottoms out on the floorboards and that looks good- if I have time today then I'll check the bolt. I have not sat in the car yet to test the pedals, my floors are out and am just trying to zero in the handbrake with the new brake shoes and slow speed connection.

Thanks for your continuing help guys!

Much appreciated,
Jim

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Re: Clutch Adjustment Question?

Post by Ruxstel24 » Sun May 12, 2019 11:45 am

Jim, I think what Scott is asking is...
Can you achieve neutral with the clutch pedal by holding it halfway down ?
If you haven't tried, do so. Hold the pedal halfway and then pull the brake lever all the way and see if it still tries to stall.
If so, your clutch is stuck together or out of adjustment.
If not and the wheels will stop and not stall, the handbrake is out of adjustment.

Let us know if that makes sense.


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Re: Clutch Adjustment Question?

Post by Fozz71 » Sun May 12, 2019 1:15 pm

OKay, gotcha, I will try the foot method and sit in the car and try to hold neutral with the pedal. I am beginning to wonder if the 15 year sleep has glued the discs together? Just an idea.

Stay tuned, will try and get time today.

Thanks
Jim


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Re: Clutch Adjustment Question?

Post by Fozz71 » Sun May 12, 2019 3:52 pm

OK guys, here’s what I did today - I disconnected the brake rods, adjusted the pedal so it stops an inch above the floorboards for the clutch. Started the car and cannot find neutral with the pedal anywhere. The tires go with power.

I tried finding neutral with the handbrake looking for a sweet spot and zero- the wheels just spin.

Does it sound like my clutch discs are glued together from sitting over the years?

Thanks,
Jim

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Re: Clutch Adjustment Question?

Post by Ruxstel24 » Sun May 12, 2019 4:35 pm

Yeah, sure sounds like stuck plates. As long as you nor anyone else has messed with the clutch adjustment, more than likely.

You can try hooking the brake rods back up and adjust so they hold good.
CHOCK The FRONT WHEELS !!
Jack stand both rears up, start and try pulling the hand brake and apply the foot brake at the same time. If the engine bogs down, let up and try again. It might free up this way.

Others may have other methods...


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Re: Clutch Adjustment Question?

Post by Fozz71 » Sun May 12, 2019 5:04 pm

Gents,
Here's the part that baffles me, I can put the handbrake vertically with the car OFF, and the back wheels spin freely (jacked up) without any drag at all. Can spin with one finger pressure, BUT start the car and they spin with torque.

Sound odd or okay?

Thanks
Jim

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Re: Clutch Adjustment Question?

Post by Ruxstel24 » Sun May 12, 2019 5:07 pm

fozz71 wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 5:04 pm
Gents,
Here's the part that baffles me, I can put the handbrake vertically with the car OFF, and the back wheels spin freely (jacked up) without any drag at all. Can spin with one finger pressure, BUT start the car and they spin with torque.

Sound odd or okay?

Thanks
Jim
Probably the differential turning, if BOTH wheels are not turning the same direction, the driveshaft is not turning....if both wheels are up.

Can you push the car like that on the ground ?


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Re: Clutch Adjustment Question?

Post by Fozz71 » Sun May 12, 2019 5:13 pm

Yes, can push the car on the ground. I just had my son hold a back wheel (car turned off) while I cranked with handbrake vertical and he can hold the wheel still. When I held the back wheel the same way, while he cranked, while in neutral I can keep it still but it wants to turn and jerks a little every second or so, but I am able to hold it from turning fairly easily.


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Re: Clutch Adjustment Question?

Post by Fozz71 » Mon May 13, 2019 8:42 pm

Success! I turned down my cam bolt and found the sweet spot on the hand-brake and Voila! Neutral glory, the car ran and performed like a champ. The issue was a combination of new meatier brake shoes and clevis adjustment on the clutch linkage.

Thanks for all the help!
Jim


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Re: Clutch Adjustment Question?

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue May 14, 2019 7:18 pm

Jim

this was a painful read, but am happy that your car is working correctly.
Scott Conger

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Re: Clutch Adjustment Question?

Post by Mark Gregush » Tue May 14, 2019 9:05 pm

With the wheels off the ground, car in neutral, the nature of the beast is; the wheels will still spin because of drag from oil between the disk. That is just the way it is and is nothing like a dry clutch. ;)
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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