My Kingston 5-ball and it's float level

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Rich Eagle
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My Kingston 5-ball and it's float level

Post by Rich Eagle » Thu May 11, 2023 3:17 pm

I hadn't much appreciation for a 5-ball carburetor until I purchased this one. It has been an experience all of its own. You may have seen these posts about different phases of work on it, or you may have passed as it didn't pertain to your car.
https://www.mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic. ... 85#p279200
https://www.mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic. ... 85#p279582
https://www.mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic. ... 85#p280328
https://www.mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic. ... 00#p281477
The workings of this are covered in this Ford Fix discussion:
https://modeltfordfix.com/rebuilding-th ... el-t-ford/
There wasn't much information on setting the float though. I'm not a carb expert but a jig on the Smokestak gave me this idea of what needed to be done.
The float pivots in a chamber integral with the float bowl. The bowl is normally held to the upper body by a sleeve that the main jet is screwed into. In order to see the float and the gas at its level the jig holds the bowl, sleeve and air horn in position and sealed at the bottom of the sleeve as it normally would without threading to the main body. The float can be shimmed to where the gas level is just below the top of the main jet. This jig also is a good test for any leaks and the seat on the needle valve.
FloatTest1.jpg
FloatTest2.jpg
This illustration helped me to see where the level should be.
5ballAEsl.jpg
I will be anxious to see how well the 5-ball works after 5 weeks of fiddling with it.
Rich
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Re: My Kingston 5-ball and it's float level

Post by Rob » Thu May 11, 2023 10:24 pm

Thanks Rich. Very helpful. Thank you for posting your experiences.


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Re: My Kingston 5-ball and it's float level

Post by ThreePedalTapDancer » Fri May 12, 2023 3:59 pm

Very clever. I will get to work duplicating your device to set my 5 ball up correctly.

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Re: My Kingston 5-ball and it's float level

Post by Rich Eagle » Fri May 12, 2023 4:28 pm

Thanks Rob and Ed. I hope this helps.
I solved one other mystery today. I read warnings to make sure the 5 plugs went back into the same holes as they came out of. It made sense but I wondered if it was the direction of the crescent cutouts or the height of the cavity. Mine were not the same in either case. I finally found a statement that said "the scallop under the hex ball caps should point to the center of the carburetor." It made sense. I switched two caps and shimmed the other three to get that configuration.
plugg.jpg
This illustration from an ad shows the caps are arranged that way.
Kingst5.jpg
The same fellow said that one ball had a light spring on top of one ball. I have no information of that. It may have been a random fix. This was in his Brush.
This is more info than I had to start with, and I welcome any other wisdom on this subject.
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Re: My Kingston 5-ball and it's float level

Post by ThreePedalTapDancer » Fri May 12, 2023 4:46 pm

Are the balls the same size?


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Re: My Kingston 5-ball and it's float level

Post by KimDobbins » Fri May 12, 2023 7:26 pm

Rich, where did you find the information about not mixing up the 5 ball caps and the scallops needing to be facing the center of the carb?

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Re: My Kingston 5-ball and it's float level

Post by Rob » Fri May 12, 2023 7:35 pm

Kim, I saw similar info on Model T Fix (I think, by Royce). Also, I had not seen Rich’s info on using steel balls with the enclosed carb (ours is). Rich, do you happen to have that info?
Thanks guys,
Rob
2DBAC2A4-276C-4C64-B529-BF473487448D.jpeg
Also, our caps aren’t dished or scalloped.


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Re: My Kingston 5-ball and it's float level

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri May 12, 2023 8:11 pm

steel balls of a size "x" will be slightly lighter than cast brass balls of the same size "x"

if you are running lean at idle or low throttle, you want a higher fuel level at the jet, and if it is snorting when you throw open the throttle (and are using steel balls) you will want to try brass balls. The original balls were cast bronze (which is fairly similar to steel in weight by volume) and likely could be used interchangeably with stainless steel. The point is, if your choices are only commercial brass balls or steel balls, there is a difference in weight.

Imperfect seats or seats with too much or too little area will all add unwanted effects to the mixture ratio
Last edited by Scott_Conger on Sat May 13, 2023 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My Kingston 5-ball and it's float level

Post by Rich Eagle » Fri May 12, 2023 9:49 pm

Kim, this is the discussion of the scallops facing the center.
https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=a2184cb7 ... bGQv&ntb=1
Royce wrote "We used a magic marker to note the position of each of the ball caps. They will be kept in order throughout the process." in the modeltfordfix article. It was mentioned in at least one other discussion somewhere. The balls look to be bronze and all the same size on my carb. The 5 seats the balls rest on are different heights in respect to the top of the cap seating surface getting higher as measured anti clockwise. Maybe .026 difference from lowest to highest. Also, the height inside the cap varied with .040 difference from deepest to most shallow. These measurements were taken as best I could just out of curiosity. More careful measuring might show it differently.
The expertise varies amongst the contributors, but hopefully some wisdom will come out of this. I know Scott and others have much more experience than I do.
Thanks for the comments.
Rich
Last edited by Rich Eagle on Sat May 13, 2023 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My Kingston 5-ball and it's float level

Post by KimDobbins » Fri May 12, 2023 11:27 pm

Thanks Rich, I measured my 5 ball that I’m going to use on my 1909 to see how it compares to yours. The difference on the brass balls is only .002. The depth of the caps is similar with only .004 difference. The ball seat depth is similar in 4 of the seats with .012 different. The center or # 3 seat is .030 deeper than the average of the other 4. My carb is pretty early and has a different float and arm. This arraignment is pictured on the first Ford parts book in early 1909.
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Re: My Kingston 5-ball and it's float level

Post by Rich Eagle » Sat May 13, 2023 9:29 am

That is an interesting float, Kim. When I measured the different heights, I just measured how far the top of each ball was from the carb body surface. I didn't measure the different ball diameters. If the balls were different sizes, that might have affected the measurements. If some balls and seats wore more than others, it may account for the difference. It also would vary from carb to carb. Likewise for the cap depths. Shimming the caps would change the distance the ball travels. I have no idea how this affects performance. It will be a while before I try this carb out. Until I know how well it works, all this is speculation at this point.
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Re: My Kingston 5-ball and it's float level

Post by Rich P. Bingham » Sat May 13, 2023 10:32 am

I will never own one, fascinated as I am by the earliest Ts. The rarity and many differences from the mass-produced cars is intriguing and mysterious. Thanks, fellows for the detail on this amazingly complex carburetor. The craftsmanship that went into it is wonderful to see !!
Get a horse !

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Re: My Kingston 5-ball and it's float level

Post by Rich Eagle » Sat May 13, 2023 1:16 pm

"I will never own one" is what I thought. Years ago, I thanked Stan Howe for showing his beautiful work on a five-ball saying "...something I will never have". I didn't ever expect I would get one as my NH works fine on the '09. Never say never.
I read today that the bushings that the balls rest on were threaded into the carburetor. I had to look, and it seems to be. I suppose if needed they could be rotated to change the height of the balls. I won't but it is a thought.
Rich
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Re: My Kingston 5-ball and it's float level

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat May 13, 2023 2:04 pm

Rich, you're not going to want to alter either the cap(s) nor the seats. For the Kingston 4100 (which was the FORD version of the 5 ball for 1909) all balls were bronze and all were identical. Similarly, all caps were identical and are only isolated to their respective holes due to their skirts being relieved for air flow once fitted to the carb (hole) that they were going to reside in. Once thus relieved, they are specific for that location on that particular carb

Total lift of the balls is minimal and controlled by the cap. If they were free to lift without restraint within a column, they would lift to the point of oscillation and thus impact the mixture to a deleterious point...the design of having multiple balls is so that as pressure differential increases, a ball or balls unseat and if further flow is required, another ball lifts, etc.

An unaltered 4100 will have different diameters of air inlet(s) thus exposing more or less area/lift to identical balls. Additionally, each seat has a different shape (pitch angle) so as to render more or less sealing and air flow for the specific area for which it must seal. As mentioned above, as the ball with the greatest area exposed (requiring less pressure differential to unseat) will lift to a point of restriction and then, the next ball with the next smaller opening will begin to lift, etc.
Last edited by Scott_Conger on Sat May 13, 2023 3:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: My Kingston 5-ball and it's float level

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat May 13, 2023 2:12 pm

It was believed (and I think rightly so) that unlike springs used by other carburetors, a ball of a precise weight, would be impervious to temperature changes, wear, set, or fatigue, as could be a spring. Their excellent operation when new or correctly rebuilt and their dominance in every market at that time that they entered attests to the simplicity/superiority of their design.

Anyone who has fooled with trying to get a Rayfield carb with an air valve adjusted with the correct spring will agree whole-heartedly with the Kingston engineers regarding the superiority and unvarying nature of the ball design. The Rayfield UF has that designed out and is a fabulous carb, and I mention this so as to not dissuade anyone from acquiring a UF.
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Re: My Kingston 5-ball and it's float level

Post by Rich Eagle » Sat May 13, 2023 8:48 pm

Thanks Scott. I really appreciate your input.
Here are some cuts from Kingston ads. The first shows different configurations for the different seats. The second has reassurance in the last line. "A KINGSTON CARBURETOR has never worn out." (Dec 23, 1909) :lol:
KingstAdz.jpg
The many ads I looked at were fun and some had good clues. Most 5-balls saw use on marine engines and uses other than automobiles.
There is far more to know about these carburetors. As they were used for a short time and certainly changed their operation as they wore old, much of The knowledge about them has been lost. I hope this thread will be of help to those who follow in years to come.
Rich
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Re: My Kingston 5-ball and it's float level

Post by Rich Eagle » Mon May 22, 2023 1:06 pm

The day came to install the 5-ball. I took some pictures to remember it before it goes under the hood.
Inst1.jpg
It would seem a simple job to unbolt the L4 and bolt on the Kingston. It didn't turn out to be.
The gas line is the same length but enters the Kingston lower which involved putting a couple on bends in it. Getting a tubing bender into the available space was tricky. The two mounting bolts were too long so I found shorter ones. I slotted them for easier installation.
Inst2.jpg
This carb doesn't have a choke, but a tickler which pushes the float down to let gas into the chamber. I noticed the previous choke rod had a notch worn in it from the radiator sheet metal. The repro adjusting rod had too large a diameter where it goes into the two holes on the needle valve. It will fit but binds when turning. I had an original which worked better.
inst3.jpg
After these and a few other tasks I was ready to turn on the gas and see if it would start. Gas began dripping from the bottom of the float bowl. I mistakenly suspected the float level being wrong, so I took the bowl assembly off and added a shim to the float. Reassembled, it still leaked. Probably two hours, no longer at my best, I fiddled with the float, both on the car and on the test jig. With no improvement in the leakage, it occurred to me it wasn't the float after all. There is a copper crush washer that seals the bottom of the bowl and the sleeve/nut that holds it to the carb body. I had added a thin gasket and it sealed fine on the test jig. However, in assembling this to the body, the sleeve did not tighten enough to seal. Other discussions talk about a lead washer here. I tried a thicker washer, and all was well. I now had the float shimmed for a lower fuel level but decided to give the car a crank.
inst4.jpg
I have used Vowel Art and some of FordFix pics here.
Thank goodness it started and after fiddling with the adjustment it ran quite well. It accelerated nicely.
By now, the gas line fittings were seeping from all the assembly and disassembly, but life was good. I shut the gas off again and called it a day. I suppose the sediment bowl valve will start leaking too now, as it got a lot of use during the ordeal.
I will work over the fittings and take it for a test drive.
Thanks for all the help in getting this carburetor working. The suggestions and information out there made all the difference in the world.
More later.
Rich
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Re: My Kingston 5-ball and it's float level

Post by Rob » Mon May 22, 2023 2:57 pm

Looks great Rich. Thank you for the photos and posts. Now to get you to make a service call…. 8-)

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Re: My Kingston 5-ball and it's float level

Post by Rich Eagle » Mon May 22, 2023 3:53 pm

Thanks Rob. I'm not sure I could help but if I lived closer, I'd try. I mentioned the fittings seeping. I made new gaskets for my homemade swivel and new tape on the pipe fittings. The machining on the swivel wasn't perfect and the gaskets wore a bit. I also put some discarded red rubber hose on the gas line to keep it from wearing or rattling against the hogshead bolts.
Inst5.jpg
After turning the gas back on, I noticed some gas coming from the threaded end of the float arm pivot screw. I backed it out and smothered it with fuel lube and tightened it back down. That may have been some of the gas showing on the fittings.
Inst6.jpg
The rewarding part of the story is that the car started on the second pull without "tickling" the float. It runs well. I took it out for a 4-mile spin, and it works every bit as well as the L4. It seemed I could even go faster with the 5-ball.
These are the things that make the hobby so delightful. It reminds me of the surprise I got when my first T started after rebuilding the engine. I was 16. Most projects have their bumps and disappointments so when things go well it is pretty wonderful.
I have always been leery of brass carburetors until I built a Holley G for my '14 last year. I will tackle the four-ball for it in the future.
Reaching out to new things keeps the hobby fresh and interesting. My '09 is one step closer to being legitimate now.
I'll take a nap and then go clean up the shop from the last several projects. It was getting tough to get around in it.
I won't bore you with the difficulties in getting up and down on the creeper and the other complaints we older guys get through. The joy of success overshadows it all.
Good for now.
Rich
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Re: My Kingston 5-ball and it's float level

Post by Rich Eagle » Fri May 26, 2023 1:48 pm

All seemed fine except that the car ran best with the needle valve screwed all the way down or shut. There was a wear ring in the end, so I made a jig to sand it out. Upon installing it, it stopped at the same point as before. It ran well there but in adjusting it I found eventually it would screw in farther. The threads had probably never screwed in that far before and weren't worn as much as they were farther up the needle. After persuading I got it to seat and then run well at 3/4 turn out.
Needle1.jpg
The carb had not been leaking before that but next morning there was a puddle on the floor. I concluded a shut-off valve was needed. I had bought some nice older ones. A remaining candidate did not have compression fittings. The threads for them look just like a modern size but the nuts would not go on. The diameter was just a few thousandths different and the TPI was the same so I threaded some drill rod to act as a tap. This worked fine and I installed the valve. I turned the valves on and there was no leak apparent for the rest of the day.
ShtOff.jpg
This morning there was another puddle, so the valve is good to have while I fix leaks that occur. My suspicion is that the fuel lube on the float pivot screw has washed out, but we will see.
I was reminded of a friend who claimed that there were two sizes of 3/4-24 thread on grease cups. A large and a small. I tried to tell him that it was a standard size with tolerances. I couldn't convince him. There was a slight variation on the tolerances of the compression fitting, old to new. When I made the elbow for this carb, I turned the threads and used an original steel compression nut to chase the threads. When I tried to use a new brass nut it bound on the new threads before tightening. The steel nut works fine so I used it. The brass nut fits the elbow on the old L4 just fine. It may be different tolerances or simply corrosion or wear from use.
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Re: My Kingston 5-ball and it's float level

Post by Rich Eagle » Mon May 29, 2023 2:45 pm

Chapter 9 :cry:
I keep thinking I have reached the end of this story, but each step forward seems to have a half a step back. FWIW, after turning the gas on, the car would not start. Tickling didn't help. I let it sit a few hours, the puddle returned, and it started right up. Gas off and the next morning the same thing. There is a cap above the float valve and the gas level can be seen when it is removed. When the gas is turned off, the slow drip stops, and the gas level is about right from what I have gathered. In an hour or two, the gas level has dropped 1/4" or so. I can't see where the gas goes. Not on the floor. Turning on the gas, it takes 15 minutes or more for the level to rise and the drip to start. Then the car starts fine.
Looking at the float valve, I can see that the tickler is not letting any more gas into the chamber. Perhaps not pushing the float down. As some idiot tapped a pipe thread into the intake manifold, I can install a primer cup. I just happen to have a 90° one. It was a nice chance to clean up the brass and install it. Now I can get the extra gas needed to start without tickler or choke.
At some point I will see if I can adjust the float level, so the leak stops and investigate the tickler not tickling.
Primer.jpg
Hopefully this info will help someone along the way.
Rich
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Re: My Kingston 5-ball and it's float level

Post by RGould1910 » Mon May 29, 2023 5:14 pm

5 ball carbs typically need to be flooded to start
My method
1. Flood the carb by depressing the float for 5 seconds
2. With the ignition off give the hand crank 5 pulls.
3. Turn on the ignition
4. Crank and, if you didn't get a free start after 3. , it will start on on one or two pulls.
PgtnUiv2Q.jpg

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Re: My Kingston 5-ball and it's float level

Post by Rich Eagle » Tue May 30, 2023 11:35 am

That would be great if my tickler reached the float. As it is, I can start the car on the second pull without flooding. Cold or warm. That would be fine if not for the leak. Kingston mentioned that when the engine is shut off, a supply of fuel fills the main jet tube for starting. I have that plus just a little. Getting the float a bit lower should cure the leak but it will need to be tickled. I will need to make a bit longer plunger for the tickler. The new float material must be slightly different buoyancy than the cork was.
Thanks for the comment.
Rich
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Re: My Kingston 5-ball and it's float level

Post by Rich Eagle » Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:50 pm

By making a 5/16" longer plunger, the float can be "tickled", or pressed down to let more gas in the air chamber. I'm still curious why it was necessary.
The slight leak persisted with various changes in float level. I will say that it was a good suggestion to shim the float rather than bend the cast brass arm. I would have broken it by now with all my experimentation. I concluded the float valve might be the problem, so I made a new one. It was a new challenge and came out quite well. However, the leak continues as before. Perhaps the seat is the problem.
Needle2.jpg
I guess the fact that the carb has never leaked on the test fixture but leaks in the car is because there is more pressure from a tank of gas than the cup I use for the tests. That surprises me but is so.
Since the car runs and starts well, I will live with the leak and simply shut it off overnight until I get the bug to look at it further.
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Re: My Kingston 5-ball and it's float level

Post by RGould1910 » Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:14 pm

That's pretty delicate work, Rich. Those 5 ball needles are small!

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Re: My Kingston 5-ball and it's float level

Post by Rich Eagle » Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:04 pm

It is small Richard. .097 stem. Bronze can grab the bit, chatter and break it quite easily. The excess play in my lathe makes that very possible. I'm not a trained machinist but have learned a bit as I went. Going slow got the job done. Watching the marvelous work that other, better trained have done always encourages me to try.
After running a few miles, the carb does not leak during the day, but a small spot where gas has leaked still shows up each morning.
Other than that, it seems to work great.
Rich
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KimDobbins
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Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:16 pm
First Name: Kim
Last Name: Dobbins
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1909 touring, 1910 touring, 1913 touring, 1916 couplet, 1924 truck.
Location: Southern California
MTFCA Number: 8243

Re: My Kingston 5-ball and it's float level

Post by KimDobbins » Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:25 pm

Good work! Ive made those before and its certainly no picnic. I think your results are about as good as you can expect. Kim

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Rich Eagle
Posts: 6789
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:51 am
First Name: Richard
Last Name: Eagle
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1909 TR 1914 TR 1915 Rd 1920 Spdstr 1922 Coupe 1925 Tudor
Location: Idaho Falls, ID
MTFCA Number: 1219
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Re: My Kingston 5-ball and it's float level

Post by Rich Eagle » Thu Jun 08, 2023 1:07 pm

Thanks Kim. It is unbelievably gratifying to work on parts this old. I have enjoyed your projects for many years now and happy to have some too.
On a trip in the moist air this morning, a few skips in the rhythm made me wonder if the manifold was icing, but not enough to be trouble.
I showed the carb off to some of the coffee guys with later cars and they could see the magic in my 5-ball.
Still Smiling.
Rich
When did I do that?

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