MTFCA Forum

Well, after 8 years of an amateur restoration it was time to start the car. It started easily and ran well, however, I didn't seem to have a neutral. One rear wheel was jacked up and was spinning very fast. Car ran for about 5 minutes than was shut off, to look into transmission adjustments. I didn't get around to it till a couple of days later. So today I removed the transmission door to look at the bands and clutch fingers. That is when the key fell out and landed in the transmission. I have been looking with a flash light and poking around with a flexible shaft pickup tool, but can't see the key. So, what should I try next. Should I drain the oil and try to find the key through the oil drain hole? Anybody got any other suggestions. I have already called myself an idiot and big dummy, so that is all taken care of. Car is a 1919 touring, non starter. Key is the flat black one for the coil box ignition switch.
Bill Goodheart

Bill,

If it helps any, you're not the first one to do this. Best suggestion I can give is to buy a flexible borescope with an illuminated head and go hunting. Looking into the drain hole is a good idea, but the key most likely will not pass through it. Still, if you can spot it there, you now at least know where it is and can devise a scheme to retrieve it. Removing the hogshead may be in order at some point, but try all the "easy" stuff first.

I am not familiar with the composition of the key on that car, however, if it is steel, it will stick to a magnet. Hopefully not a magneto magnet. If you have a magnet on a flexible cable, you might be able to snag it from the bottom of the transmission. If the key is brass it will not fit to a magnet, and you will need to explore to find it. I hope you find the key so it doesn't cause any problems. If you have not run the engine since the key fell, it is most likely at the lowest place it can fall from the location it was before it fell. You might even need to pull off the hogs head to retrieve it.
Norm

I dropped a band spring (steel) into my transmission once, here is how I got it out (with the aid of a helper).

I drained out all the oil and fished around with a flexible magnetic wand through the oil drain hole until I could feel the spring.

With a helper looking down through the inspection hole, I pushed the spring up the bottom of the transmission housing until he could see the spring.

Finally, I went in from the top through the inspection hole with a wand with gripping fingers, grabbed the spring, and pulled it out from the top.

Good luck!

Hi Bill,
Welcome to the club. Get a clean pan & drain the oil, no need to waste it. I use a aluminum flexable magnet ( I'm assuming the key is steel ) I
also have a inexpensive bore camera (very valuable with a T ) If you have a none starter engine you don't have starter holes to look in, take the inspection cover off so you can look in that way if still have not found it by then. because there is no ring gear it may have found the magnets
on the flywheel. The bore scope will let you look at the tripple gears, go in through the engine inspaction hole.
Good luck.
Craig.

I would take out the spark plugs and use only the hand crank to move the engine very slowly and cautiously.

When I was reassembling the transmission and putting the bands back on, I dropped a band ear down into the transmission. It was in the very bottom of the pan and I barely saw a corner of the ear. I was able to get it out with a flexible gripper thing. I had the Hogshead off so that made it easier. A borescope would be a good way to approach your situation. Have a good flashlight also helps a ton. If all else fails, Take off the Hogshead. It will get you closer to the bottom of the pan.

I once dropped a stainless steel cotter pin inside the transmission. I could see it but I wasn’t able to reach it. I ended up having to take the hogshead off. I then stuffed a rag between the flywheel and the oil pan on the left side and slowly turned the engine over with the hand crank and the rag acted like a broom and pushed the cotter pin up to the right side where I could reach it.

BAD NEWS: All my T keys are BRASS.

Drain the oil, fish around in the bottom of the pan around the drain hole to see if you can feel, hear it. Harbor Freight sells a budget bore-scope you might be able to flex around in the transmission to find the key. IF you can get it to the drain hole, make a semi long u-hook in a long piece of wire. Slip the hook through the drain hole until the open end of the hook is above the key. Bring the open end down through the key hole and twist the wire to lock the key on the wire. Take the opposite end of the wire and feed it UP through the drain hole, through the transmission so someone can reach it from above. Carefully pull the remaining wire through the drain hole and ease the key out.

Good Luck,

All these objects were retrieved from my transmission without having to pull anything apart. It had been driven for years with them in there. I supposed it helped that the magnets were weak.

Do not turn the motor. If you didnt, chances are high it hasnt found a magnet.
The key would be steel.
I would drain the oil. Look up the drain hole. If the key got to the pan bottom, it would have slid down the pan reinforcement rib. You may get lucky & see it. If not, snake a bore scope to locate it & use to guide a magnetic pick up tool. Tape around the outside of the magnet to keep the tool from sticking where you dont want it to. Make sure your tool is of sufficient quality that it wont come apart while using it. Retrieving the magnet adds another layer to the issue you dont need. You would surely be able to retrieve the key with the H/H off, but the idea is to avoid that.

You’ve received good information Bill and I can’t add to it. Once you’ve retrieved your key and you want to reopen that tranny inspection plate; be sure and turn that key to MAG so it won’t fall out again….but after the plate is reinstalled turn the key off so you’ll only lose minimal Alternating Current.

Rule #1 is always remove the ignition key before you open that transmission band adjust cover.

I had to remove the whole transmission cover, not just the inspection plate.

Then I drained the oil, put two red rags in a wad the size of a baseball, and stuck the rags in the oil pan kind of attached to the starter ring gear and turned the engine over halfway with the crank.

Among the items I found was the key, several short sections of wound safety wire, a connecting rod bolt, a band washer about as bad as the one above, and some other smaller items.

The engine ran OK after being assembled again.

Most of us have done this when working on a T transmission!

It’s what happens when we think we’re really familiar with our cars BUT we forget to either stuff rags inside the transmission AND forget about the ‘l<>][~^_ KEY in the ignition!!

I still have the chrome vanadium box end wrench my Grandfather had under the seat in the 24 Coupe I inherited from him. It had cord tied on it and wondering what it was for I found it fit the transmission band adjustment nuts! We live and learn!

Years ago, I saw where a member dropped something into the transmission. He got a wad of rags and tied a string around it so it had 2 feet of string on each side. The end of the string was tied to a steel washer and fed into the transmission and fished out with a magnet on the other side. Once the string was retrieved, he pulled the string until the wad of rags went down and he was able to pull the item up on the other side. Hopefully your key is brass so it does not stick to a magnet. If it is steel and does get stuck to a magnet, I regret to tell you that you will have to pull the engine. Jim Patrick

JohnH
What is the long object that you got out of your transmission? Looks like a screwdriver or some sort of scraper? You’re lucky it didn’t get caught on the flywheel somehow!

John H., That's Grandma's old butter knife

Looks like a screwdriver designed to fit in an old bit brace.

If you wish to leave the key in the switch, put it on Mag, so it can't fall out.

Happy Hunting!!! We have all been there.
Rich

been there, done that...

just at the time I was ready to pull the hogshead...an 8 year old wandered by. Long skinny arms. He managed to slide down and in...found it and brought it out slowly...

Pure Luck....

In the spring of 1947, I needed to reline the bands on my 1910 that I bought the year before at the age of 14. I dropped the nut from one of the peddle shafts. I ended up taking off the trans cover, since on a 1910, the cover plate is small, so the whole cover needs to be removed. I then had to find the nut. I called the office at the Twin City Ford plant and they put on a worker who had been there when the plant opended in 1925. He said the nut was probably in the bottom of the pan. He said to tap the pan opening with a hammer and the nut would jump up and be picked up by one of the magneto magnets. Then crank the engine so the fly wheel turns. I did so and found the nut attached to one o f the magnets.

John kuehn wrote: ↑

Wed May 31, 2023 9:04 am

JohnH
What is the long object that you got out of your transmission? Looks like a screwdriver or some sort of scraper? You’re lucky it didn’t get caught on the flywheel somehow!

It's a screwdriver bit for a brace. It was sitting in the channel that runs down the bottom of the bellhousing. I noticed it one day when I was changing the oil, and the end of it was in the drain plug hole. And yes, at some time it did get caught on the flywheel because some of the field coils had been gouged and one of the magnets forced over to the side. Not only that, the bottom of the bellhousing has a small dent which had been cracked and soldered up. So someone knew that something had happened. Amazing that it had been driven around for so long like this.

When you get the key out, put a lanyard on it. If it happens again you will have something to snag.

Two weeks ago, while assembling the bands for the first time, I dropped a lock washer down the right side.
As much of a fan of stainless steel that I am, I got the grade-8 washer out with a magnet.
I do own a $15 borescope which plugs into my laptop but didn't have to use it.

Thanks to all of the suggestions and replies. Everyone was very helpful.
I GOT THE KEY OUT! I drained the oil and was about to remove the inspection plate from the bottom of the oil pan, then decided to have one more look into the transmission band adjusting opening. With a bright flashlight I saw the curved end of the key with the square hole in it. By using a piece of 1/4" fuel line I was able to just touch the key and drag it back to where I could see more of the key partially under the clutch spring. I used the claw device with the push button on the end and slowly pulled the key up to where I could get a hold of it with my fingers, I had to twist and turn it a bit but got it out. I consider myself very lucky. I am attaching a picture of the key after I got it out. If I had thought of it I would Have taken one of the key when I first saw it. https://www.mtfca.com/phpBB3/download/f ... &id=163622

Well done Sir !!!

Now tie a string looped through the hole and tie it off on your coil box

JTT3 wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:53 pm

Now tie a string looped through the hole and tie it off on your coil box

Parachute cord is your friend. Tie one end to the key, the other to a good anchor point in the car. Then when it wants to go "deep transmission diving", or work its way off and drop, it's not going far... Or if authenticity is important, get some cotton venitian blind cord... just keep an eye on it as a couple years of sunlight will weaken it.