MTFCA Forum

I think you're right...

I also think you ought to consider what an over drive would do if married to a 4:1 rear end

a Forum search will show you that folks who do that are thrilled with the results

In my experience, having a Rucktell, most drivers have changed to a 3 to 1 ring and pinion. This gives you a little more top end. Sorta like a poor mans overdrive. When the engine is tired, and needs to be rebuilt, you will most often start out in Low Low, then shift to High Low, and then High Direct.
Works great here in the high plains where we have lots of flat places to drive. Growing up in Colorado, it would be very useful.

The 3:1 with Ruckstell might work very well in Kansas, but I have one in one of my cars and it must be shifted into Ruckstell going uphill more often than with standard ratio. Also when starting out on a small grade where I can easily start in Ford low, I must use Ford, Ruckstell low combination because it lugs the engine in Ford Low Ruckstell High. Also on tours, when the other cars are pulling a hill at 25 mph in Ford or Ruckstell with Ford I must keep up to about 35 or I bog down and need Ruckstell when the others can pull in high gear or will need to shift down. So it depends on the grades in your area.
Norm

The only constraint on fitting a KC Warford is the up front cost. With it, you can drive your standard ratio T just like you drive a T without an auxilliary transmission, so that takes care of purists. Or, you can take off in T low and Warford low, without hardly any slipping of the clutch on engagement, foot off and drop into Ford high and gearbox low, then into gearbox high. That give you a pretty slick three speed car. Then, under favourable conditions, you can go into overdrive for longer leg cruising, all of this with a standard ring and pinion gear.

Re the need for auxilliary brakes, If you drive the car as a standard T, you have the same brakes as standard. Otherwise, you have extra ratios to hold the car back in hills on compression. I only ever use overdrive on wide open country roads. This said, I do have Bennett brakes fitted, because I could!

You can select a positive neutral, which would allow a flat tow. The design of the transmission is such that given reasonable engine speeds, you can always find a gear to select, and working down through them is easy to do. It is all made so much easier to do with a foot throttle.

I extended my shift lever some 4-5", and angled it back so the shift knob is right by my knee. With my hand on my knee and on the knob, I can make imperceptible shifts from high into overdrive. On more that one occasion, this has left passengers wondering how this can happen.

If I come across as a KC Warford fan, so be it.

The 3:1 with Ruckstell might work very well in Kansas, but I have one in one of my cars and it must be shifted into Ruckstell going uphill more often than with standard ratio.

The bone stock rear axle is good enough for Kansas and the rest of the relatively flat middle of the continent. When I venture east of Wheeling or west of Denver I'll want some "upgrades".

". With an aux transmission extra brakes are mandatory. With a Ruckstell, not supposed to have a neutral, they're a good idea in case it goes south on you.

Was I at least mostly right, or was I full of beans? "

Mostly right. However, it should never be forgotten that Ruckstells can and do occasionally fail into a neutral position. They are easier to not miss a shift than the era auxiliary transmissions, so less of a danger. However, one should make certain they have a good secondary brake of some kind with any shiftable drive line accessory.

That said, while I am a big fan of good outside brakes on most model Ts? PROPERLY assembled and adjusted cast iron LINED shoes inside the small drums can be adequate, barely.
I had that in the 1916 center-door sedan I had years ago, and even with the weight of that body, the brake handle would lock the rear wheels any time I wanted it to. I used those inside lined cast iron shoes for a lot of routine stopping. But I kept them properly adjusted. The handle gave me good control to not lock the wheels for maximum stopping and control. Or I could pull a bit harder and lock the wheels at will. I plan to do the same thing with my 1915 runabout because I don't want any visible later accessories on it.

Beyond braking issues? What combination of gearing and auxiliary gearing is best depends a lot on each individual, and what their goal is. A Ruckstell is for most people the best and easiest to use for general purposes. Whether standard rear end gears or higher speed gears are best mostly depends upon the area one will mostly be driving in. However, standard gears quite often really aren't high enough. And 3 to 1s as Norman K points out very often become problematical driving amongst other model Ts.
Speedsters and modified model Ts have many different considerations.
However, for basically Ford stock model T Fords? (Excepting of course the gearing we are discussing?) One of the nicest combinations I have heard of is 4 to 1 gears in the rear end, with one of the three speed over/direct/underdrive transmissions. Pretty much any of the common era ones, or the modern KC are good. The modern KC is easier to shift (or so I keep hearing?). And all of the better known era ones each have their fans and their detractors. I like them all if they are in good condition.
My first boat-tail roadster had that combination. It was a fairly full body boat-tail with fenders and windshield. So basically not much less than a standard runabout as far as weight and wind resistance. In direct, with the 4 to 1 gears, it was great for around town, and most local usage. Underdrive was there if I needed it for a steep hill or wandering slowly. When I reached out of town, a quick shift into overdrive and I was good to go for distance with a final gearing around 3 to 1 !
I have often thought I would like to have a 1920s stock bodied model T set up that way

My preference would be a KC Warford. An overdrive gear will save engine wear and allow higher road speeds under good conditions as well as better fuel and oil economy. The Warford also offers plenty of gear choices plus a real neutral. Braking would be improved with a properly handled Warford.

I run both a Muncie 3 speed gear box with overdrive, straight through, underdrive, and reverse with a Ruckstell rearend. That makes a faster truck and a very good parade truck. It goes an easy 40 miles an hour and slow enough (walking speed) you can get out, walk around it, and get back in it. I believe that would be 14 forward and 10 reverse selections. There is any speed/power a person could want. In reality I have more gear selections than I will ever use.

Steven S, I have had a couple model T speedsters with that combination, and I loved it! However, for most people, that would be overkill, and spitting shifts is a royal pain unless one is crazy (like me!) and gets enjoyment out of those crazy gears. And of course, every gear, every bearing, robs a little speed and performance. So, generally, some additional choices, wisely made, can maximize gearing options, without costing too much by having more options than are practical.
With the Muncie U/D/O+R and the Ruckstell added to the Ford planetary, one of my favorite combinations was "reverse-reverse-Ruckstell" with a rip roaring top speed of about three miles per hour at about 1000 rpm. Of course your TT with the lower rear end speed would be even slower.
A few times, just for kicks, I started in R-R-R and went through all twelve gears! Definitely not generally practical.

Not practical or necessary. The idea behind multiple gears, whether you have two or twenty two, is to have an available gear for a wide variety of situations. Heavy vehicles need more gears, as do vehicles with widely varying loads used under widely varying conditions. Lightweight vehicles with very limited power and engine speed ranges, like Model T Fords and many older British cars, can also benefit.

An auxilliary transmission can address many of the Model T's limitations. For my purposes, A Warford would best address those shortcomings. How many of the available gear ratios I used on any particular trip would depend entirely upon the situations encountered on that trip. I'd certainly use high/overdrive on fairly level roads with light traffic and a tailwind.

Both the Ruckstell and KC Warford give the same low gear that is quite effective. The Warford offers an overdrive. I think you’ll find that the overdrive seldom allows higher speed. What it does allow is lower rpm for a given speed, thus helping prolong engine life.

Andy

Both limited power and and limited safe RPM range limit Model T top speeds.
An overdrive gear will allow most Model Ts in good condition to run considerabley faster under appropriate conditions without pushing the limits of the engine.
An overdrive gear isn't going to be much help going uphill or into a stiff wind, but on fairly level ground under good conditions, it can allow higher speeds. If conditions change, change gears.

Multiple gears are a great help going up or down steep grades. I'd rather go up a long hill at 20 to 25 MPH in an intermediate gear than to drag up the same hill in low at 8 to 10 MPH. The same applies going down.

I have a B-61 Mack truck that would be useless with only two gears. The engine's useful speed range is very limited, and it doen't have enough power to be of much use pulling a load without a range of gears. With 15 speeds to choose from, it's fairly competent up to 60 MPH, if you don't mind shifting gears.

Steve Jelf wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 20, 2023 10:21 am

Does the lower engine speed with an overdrive make the engine last longer, or is that negated by the engine having to work harder?

I look at it like this, a motor rebuild is like $3000 to $5000, a Muncie gear box is like $200 to $400. Which one would I rather save on repairs. The gear box saves the motor by optimum RPM to run by, and the gear box is cheaper to get. Use the gear box, Ruckstell, or whatever you have to make the motor run in its best operating settings. Smoother optimum operation without sacrificing the motor and gritting your teeth every time you climb a hill.

In my TT truck, I really do not change gears too much in my opinion, but I have my favorite combinations to run by. The big thing is that I have all the possibilities that I would need; like 2 miles an hour, up a parade hill with no worry, or 50 miles an hour if I was brave enough in a TT truck (40 is plenty fast).

The engine doesn't work harder unless you make it do so. Overdrives save engines. In the mid-continent region, you would have many opportunities to exploit the advantages of an overdrive gear for fuel and oil economy, reduced engine wear, or increased road speeds without undue engine strain.

A stock or near stock Model T engine doesn't make enough power to overload itself if driven responsibley and at reasonable crankshaft speeds. You can easily lug a Model T engine in high with a stock transmission and axle ratio. You could even lug one in low gear, if you could find a steep enough grade. A wider range of gear ratios, including an overdrive, is a good thing to have.