Exhaust gasket recommendations ?

[ElGranadaT]

Greetings all-

I have a couple things I am hoping I can get some advice on - NO. 1 is about exhaust gaskets and NO. 2 is about the exhaust gland nut...

WHERE IT ALL STARTED...
I recently pulled the head and exhaust manifold on my engine for some repairs. The original exhaust gaskets were T-3063-CR style - (Snyders- one piece copper ring) In the process or pulling the exhaust I found one of the studs stripped- so I went ahead and heli-coiled all 4 holes to the next size up and I got 4 new studs along with new manifold clamps which I reamed out.

For the replacement exhaust gaskets I decided to switch from the single piece- to the split steel ring 'aka gland' style (3064) with a copper flat gasket (T-3063-C) --- Regrettably, that leaked rather badly, so I went back to the original style T3063-CR. And that leaked slightly -

NOTE: to text for leaks the second time, I reverse my shop vac and blew air into the exhaust pipe. I then used soapy water to spot the bubbles. Aside from no- 1 and 3 leaking, the main exhaust gland nut was also leaking slightly)

Neither the block or the manifold look perfect- but is was all ok before I started tinkering on it and I am hoping the leaks are all on account of 'self induced stupid pilot error'... Before I spend money buying a new exhaust manifold - I'm off to try and replace the exhaust gaskets a third time -

For the exhaust gasket problem - as far as I can tell, I have the following options -

option 1: go back to T-3063-CR - crushable single piece- and hope for the best
option 2: try using the same split steel ring / gland (NEW?) rings with a new copper gasket T-3063-C
option 3: try split steel rings with with steel gasket - T-3063-S- (I'll leave out the paper gasket - as an option for now)
option 4: try split steel rings with copper rings 3063/64 (original T design)

For the leak at the exhaust gland nut- this is a new exhaust pipe- but I'm still using the original manifold -
The question there is- on newer cars I an use to asbestos donuts- between the pipe flange and manifold -
IS there something similar for Model Ts?

and one last question -

do any of you use hi temp exhaust gasket sealer on the manifold rings?

Thanks in advance for your help and advice and have a HAPPY 4th of JULY!

[Steve Jelf]

From the T- prefix I assume those are Snyder's numbers you're using, so I'll do the same. Some people brag on the wonderfulness of the T-3063-CR one-piece gaskets. I'm sure they're fine, but they cost three times the price of the correct Ford style T-3063/64 steel rings with copper crush gaskets which I have always found quite adequate. I do add a bit of Hi-Temp RTV to help the T-3063 gaskets seal. I would never use the three-hole flat gaskets (X, C, & S) which provide no support to the manifolds and will hasten the warping (sagging) of the exhaust manifold.

Before you add anything to the exhaust nut, install it and tighten it hot. That may be all it needs. If you need to remove it, do that hot too.

[Scott_Conger]

Until you tell us that the manifold is perfectly straight, or define how "un-straight" it is, meaningful advice is impossible.

And after you know your manifold is warped (because the probability is in the 99% range) you will find that a new manifold is one of the best investments you'll ever make.

[TXGOAT2]

Old manifolds are very often warped, and sealing surfaces may be eroded or corroded.

It's my opinion that old cast iron that has been subjected to high heat stress for many hours over many years loses some of its vital properties, making it difficult to repair and less likley to give good service if it is repaired.

I'd replace the manifold with a new one, using the best gasket arrangement available, and be done with it. Manifold assemblies are best tightened in stages, evenly, and re-tightened after a few operating cycles.

When assembling the exhaust pipe to the manifold, you may encounter misalignment.

I'd try to get the pipe to line up with the manifold reasonabley well, and try to have some clearance between the pipe and the hogshead when the brass nut is tightened up. Applying powdered graphite or Neverseize to the large brass nut and the manifold outlet threads may help get it tight. It won't stand extreme tightening.

[Allan]

Martin, you missed option 5!

Using split gland rings is fraught. they have a nasty habit of mal- forming on fitting, and assuming interesting shapes when fitted and subject to heat cycles. If you use individual copper rings, it is better to cut some solid gland rings from suitable sized exhaust tubing. These can even have a small taper filed in them to aid fitting a slightly bent manifold.

Scott mentioned that it is pointless if your manifold is less than straight, and must used manifolds are bent. Check it with a straight edge. It is critical that the four holes are in line, not across the faces, but from top to bottom.

My option 5 is the set of 6 one piece heavy copper rings the vendors sell. These are reuseable. They are thick enough that a small taper can be filed on one side to aid in fitting. Fitted with a muffler sealant to fill rust pits/heat erosion, these work really well.

I have a different rick to compensate for a bent manifold. Email me if you like.

Allan from down under.

[ElGranadaT]

Thank you one and all for the great advice. Its all very helpful and much appreciated. I couldn't get this far without this form...

Regrettably, not great news with today's update.

On the manifold; I placed a straight edge on the surfaces and all appears aligned (???)

On the bad side - I also placed a straight edge on the block and it is far from straight.
It almost looks like someone ground down the the No. 1 port area ??? (See photos) - No. 4 end is also a bit off plane ...
the strange thing is the counter bored recess for the ring seems equal - hard to imagine a block warping???

Anyone ever seen anything like this?

I suppose I can close the gap with one of the gasket / gland options (including the exhaust pipe cut to size idea... with copper rings...
In the process I could try heating up the manifold (possibly with my welding torch?) and torque to max - and hope for the best.
The last option would be extreme - with milling the block face flat ---
At one point it was working - till I dinked with it ...

Marty

[TXGOAT2]

I don't think the block is warped. It may have been cracked and welded, then ground down with a hand grinder by someone who didn't realize the gasket face must be flat.
No telling, with something that old.

I'd want another block. There are still some good ones around. I'd expect that one to give trouble, in one way or another, for as long as you had patience to mess with it.

[BobShirleyAtlantaTx]

With the block in that condition, I don’t think a new manifold will help. This may seem crazy, but what about grind some on the block— maybe an eight and the rest on the manifold, to where it fits. OR maybe bolt the manifold up, heat that baby red hot and gently pull it in. When I was a kid, I’d retard the spark and light cigarettes, getting dull red never seemed to hurt the manifold. Just a thought.

[ElGranadaT]

With the block in that condition, I don’t think a new manifold will help. This may seem crazy, but what about grind some on the block— maybe an eight and the rest on the manifold, to where it fits. OR maybe bolt the manifold up, heat that baby red hot and gently pull it in. When I was a kid, I’d retard the spark and light cigarettes, getting dull red never seemed to hurt the manifold. Just a thought.

good thought- my ox-acetylene torch can definitely get it hot enough - just call it 'a tailor fit'

[Steve Jelf]

I assume this is your 1922 touring. I see two possible solutions. 1 make a special shim to fill the gap on #1 (you can forget about bending a manifold to fit); 2 get a block that hasn't been boogered up. 1922 was a very busy model year and Ford made lots of engines. It should not be hard to find a good 1922 block.

[BobShirleyAtlantaTx]

You can bend a manifold a He!! Easer than If you replace the block, what about the babbitt, cylinder bore, valves and lifters?

[Steve Jelf]

You can bend a manifold a He!! Easer than If you replace the block, what about the babbitt, cylinder bore, valves and lifters?

Agreed. But the current condition of the engine would decide it for me. If it's due for a rebuild anyway, I'd get a better block. If it's otherwise in good shape, it's worth the gamble of bending a manifold to fit. If you can make it fit without breaking it, great. If that fails (quite likely), then make (or have a machinist make) a special part to fill in the gap.

[speedytinc]

I like the idea of a spacer. Could be as simple as a taller ring/tube & 2 copper rings stacked.
Not convinced the manifold is in alignment in the plane of the holes with the pictures provided.

[Craig Leach]

This maybe the best place for the solid copper T-3036-cr to be used! Most manifolds are straight that dirrection it's the port alignement that give
the problem. Worped manifolds can be straightened so I don't see why one can not bend one to fit? Before grinding down a block I would think if
that's the dirrection you go I would grind the manifold, it's easyer to find than a block if it dosn't work out. Do you have access to a junk block?
You could clamp the manifold to a junk block with some paper gaskets ( they are cheep) on the three holes that are OK then heat the manifold
& pull with a C clamp in the cylinder. Always heat first never try to put pressure on a cold manofold it will break! High temp. silicone may cover
any small leaks. Try small Dia. rope packing for the pipe. Good luck.
Craig.

[TXGOAT2]

I doubt that there's enough stock left in that block to grind it flat.

That thing may have been dragged behind a wagon for a downhill brake or used in a weight box on some kind of plow. Or else maybe it laid in a mudhole for 60 years or so, and had pits 1/4" deep in the gasket face, and someone ground them out. No telling, really.

I wouldn't spend any money or any more time than you're willing to waste on it.

JMHO; YRMV.

[ElGranadaT]

I really like the shim idea! Thanks. I can cut the exhaust tube to fit no.1 and machine copper to take up the space that was ground down and make it all co planar to the rest of the block. I can gasket between the block and the shim and then gasket between the manifold and shim.

With respect to the rest of the engine: I just had Pete Rich, from Northern California, rework the cylinders, replace the pistons, wrist pins, brake drum, all new bands, and new flywheel, and rod splashers and new oil feed scupper... The babbitt was in excellent shape and with plastigauge it all worked out to 3+ shims each. The valves are also in very good shape and adjusted properly. It was only when I started reassembly that this problem popped up.

[ElGranadaT]

I really like the shim idea! Thank you.

For the 'gland' center tube - I can cut 1.25 in, OD thin wall steel (0.048) to slightly longer than the .33 in. single piece copper rings-
For the 'shims' I'm going to first try stacking and if necessary lap copper 'crush washers' - These are flat - and would replace the round rings-

See McMaster https://www.mcmaster.com/97725A127/


With respect to the questions about rest of the engine:

I just had Pete Rich, from Northern California, rework the cylinders, replace the pistons, wrist pins, brake drum, all new bands, and new flywheel, and rod splashers and new oil feed scupper... The babbitt was in excellent shape and with plastigauge it all worked out to 3+ shims each. The valves are also in very good shape and adjusted properly. It was only when I started reassembly that this problem popped up.

[Scott_Conger]

you will need to double up on original style crush rings (one on each side of the spacer). You will never be able to load the washers you want to use with enough force for them to flow to meet the unparallel and damaged surfaces. Spacers may work, but you still need seals on each side of them.

You are really going to have your hands full as you try to put this together. Good luck.

[Allan]

Martin, you have missed my point. The spirit level shows that the manifold is reasonably straight across the ports, but that is not what causes the problem with a bent manifold. With repeated heat cycles/no gland rings/poor gaskets etc, the manifolds tend to march up and down on the block face, so the four ports no longer line up with the ports on the block. You need to check this line-up by putting the straight edge along the top of the ports. In most cases, the rear port has dropped somewhat. This makes fitting the manifold and gland rings very difficult, so much so that a simple flat gasket is often fitted between the block and manifold. This is a temporary fix at best. Without gland rings the manifold is now free to wander about as the heat cycles dictate. The only thing holding the manifold in place is the clamping force of the four studs and the clamps.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.

[ElGranadaT]

Hi Alan. Thanks. I neglected to point out that all the ports do all align well with the block... fitting it together has not been a problem. I have put it all together twice. First , with the split steel rings and a flat copper gasket .. then with the one piece copper rings. Thecproblem is a leak at no. 1. Exhaust port. Please see the previous images.. the gap between the manifold and block is too much because the block face is not flat.

Once parts come in I'll update all.. at this point I'm feeling positive about it thanks to everyone's help.

[Steve Jelf]

You need to check this line-up by putting the straight edge along the top of the ports.

Here's what Allan is describing. Note how #1 and #4 are out of alignment with #2 and #3. A manifold like this should be straightened or replaced.

https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG82.html

[Craig Leach]

Hi Steve,
Nice fixture.
Craig.

[Allan]

Thanks Steve. That shows exactly what I was trying to say. When the get as bent as that one, I generally toss them aside. Some I can make staggered glands for, nut that one is too far gone.

Allan from down under.

[TXGOAT2]

It looks like there is a hairline crack form the Helicoiled head bolt hole out to where the gasket face used to be.

[Allan]

Martin, here's an idea to consider. if you use the heavy copper ring gaskets, and put a copper crush ring on that gasket, you will have a thicker gasket at that front port. You may even be able to put a copper crush ring on each side of the copper gasket. Given the problem you have, I would be using an exhaust sealant as well, to tale up any irregularities. We have stuff called Maniseal. Ask at your parts store what they have.

Allan from down under.

[Steve Jelf]

When the get as bent as that one, I generally toss them aside.

Yes, I tried a few that were warped more than ¼", and broke them all. But Joe Bell suggested doing those halfway, letting them cool overnight, and finishing them the next day. I'll try that next time.

Fortunately none of these were warped more than ¼".

[John Codman]

I really hate to agree with TXgoat, but sadly, I do. There is a problem with that block and it's going to be an ongoing problem until the block is replaced. Down the road - if the car was mine, I would have to disclose the issue to any future purchaser. If you were trying to sell the car to me, I would have to say that it needs a block and that would have a significant affect on what I would pay for the car. It is possible that you may be able to get the manifold to seal to the block, but it's going to be via Band-Aids. Any repair will be temporary.

[ElGranadaT]

A truly lively discussion and thank you all -

The image of the fixture helped - I now understand and appreciate the point made by Alan - (Thanks again !)

Today I took my shiny new steel ruler to illustrate the alignment of the ports on the manifold and block - (see images below)
The manifold ports are straight and even in the X-Y-Z planes. So, I think its ok and at least workable. The block mating surface clearly
is not though and at this point - I just have to stay on course with 'plan B' - and try the gasket- tubing - and compression rings idea-
I'll update all as soon as possible-

Until then -

I hope all are enjoying a happy 4th! Celebrate our great country, family, friends, food, fireworks and old Fords!

[TXGOAT2]

You could build a header to match the block ...

[Scott_Conger]

You know, Pat, you just stole my thunder...I was sitting here thinking along the same line...you beat me to it.

rather than build up spacers, I think I'd be inclined to map out the deviations and simply cut down the height of the center two ports on the manifold and just be done with it

[Quickm007]

Personnaly I used COPPER MANIFOLD GASKET SET Part # T-3063-CR with maniseal as Allan said. That gave me a lot room. I check if I had a leak with a spray of break cleaner close to the manifold and listen the engine if slow down. If no change were observed, it is well seal. If it is slowdown I will try to straight up the manifold as discribe previously. Hope that help. https://www.permatex.com/products/oreil ... rtv-3-5oz/

[ElGranadaT]

Well - the verdict is close to in and things are not looking good for this engine -

I've tried the cut solid tubes - split rings, copper gaskets, copper rings, and the expensive single piece copper rings-
Sadly, the block surface is so badly eroded and worn out of plane that I just cannot get any type of a good seal on all 4 ports.
(see earlier pictures)

Has anyone ever milled / counterbored the intake/ exhaust surface flat?

Any ideal how thick the wall is to the water jacket?

[Scott_Conger]

I'd refer you back to Pat's and my responses above

[ElGranadaT]

Thanks Scott and Pat for the ideas.

Unfortunately, I need some type of counterbore (CB) to seat the center tube - The surface of no. 1 and 4 is so badly eroded that the CB is barely present at the top of the hole. (see sketch and image) - If I cut down 2 and 3 I still have the interface issue with 1 and 2 -

I did find a similar problem with someone on this board from 2009 who had the same problem - He milled the exhaust / intake port area as far as he could, but he still couldn't get it flat- so he counterbored oversized holes - They are normally 1.25 in dia. and he went to 1.325. and down roughly 0.2 in. The then machined custom interface 'glands'/rings- I may end up trying the same- but first I have to see if I can mill the surface at all -`

see
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80 ... 1258583194

[Dan Hatch]

There is no real way to tell how thick the block is where you are wanting to deck it. I only take enough to get it fairly flat there.
But I have a question. What is going on where I have circled in your photo. Looks like a grinder got loose on the head surface. Will it seal up?

IMG_2987.jpeg (101.28 KiB) Viewed 3939 times

[Scott_Conger]

I've read, reread and reread again and I come to the same thing over and over again:

but is was all ok before I started tinkering on it

now, the block is as bad as I've ever seen, it's basically been vandalized umpteen different ways, but there is one piece of information which is being conveniently ignored while advice of all types flies around:

but is was all ok before I started tinkering on it

We know a few things, that being 1) where the intake manifold mounts, the block is perfect, 2) the engine used to run, 3) a perfectly sealed exhaust manifold is not necessary for general operation and any erosion from running such a setup is only putting icing on a ruined cake anyway.

If, with a straight manifold, the exhaust ports at 1 &4 leak

so I went back to the original style T3063-CR. And that leaked slightly

do any of you use hi temp exhaust gasket sealer on the manifold rings?

YES! buy a tube of high temp silicone sealant, slather it up, put on some T3063-CR gaskets (and I'd remove a little height from #2,3 on the manifold to decrease gaps at #1 and 4) and be done with it. Then drive it for a few years, have fun, and look for another block

[Dan McEachern]

It would be pretty simple to machine the two center exhaust ports on an exhaust manifold face to get some contact at the #1 and #4 exhaust ports on the block. Some block castings are kinda thin along the manifold surface and I would bet that machining enough off the block to clean those end ports up would hit the water jacket. Even if that worked, you will need to remachine the counter bores for the core plugs. Its unfortunate that you have put so much effort into a block with this issue.

[ElGranadaT]

Good news everyone !

I was able to use a carbide tip hole saw from Amazon ($16.00) to counterbore the block roughly 1/8 in. Then I cut solid 1.125 tubing (Don't laugh, but bathroom drain pipe tubing was an exact fit) and then I used a combination of the flat washers, and the stock 'o ring style' copper rings to fill the gaps... Torqued all down and after dinking with a distributor problem for a few weeks, got her running with no leaks -

Thank you all once again for your terrific help ! Your knowledge and experience is much appreciated.