MTFCA Forum

Hi All,

So the TT I got recently has been sitting for about 6 years and is not a runner at present.



I started tearing into it to get it up and running, should have been an easy fix. When I pulled the head, found a lower milage rebuild with stainless valves, .060" over aluminum pistons, adjustable lifters, etc.



I knew when I started that the head gasket was weeping down the side of the block a bit, but when I pulled the valve galley cover and Found anti-freeze in the galley floor..





So I decided it would be a good idea to drain the oil and ass soon as I pulled the drain plug.....out came Anti-Freeze (about 2-3 quarts) and then a bunch of gross oil. in total, about 2 gallons came out.

I can see that on the gasket, evidence of it slowly leaking/Weeping for a while and I don't think it was run that way.

That all said, what is the best way to clean this out and what should I use? I am assuming that I am going to have to pull the engine, pull the pan and hogshead, rods, clutches, bands, etc and clean them all, or can I do it in-truck?

Thats a lotta leak from a fresh head gasket.
I would look real hard for a possible freeze crack you may have missed.
How does an external head gasket weep fill an enclosed valve chamber??

I'd take off the transmission cover plate and the oil pan access cover and drain plug and take a look.

You can probably mop out a bunch of the sludgey oil, if it won't run out by itself. If you're lucky there won't be much of any rust. A good pump up weed sprayer with a mix of diesel and degreaser and water in it can be used to flush out hard to reach areas. That will get rid of contaminated oil and anti-freeze residue. I'd follow that with diesel with motor oil in it, then mop out any places that liquid is trapped with clean rags.

Be sure the oil line is clear. Let everything dry out for a couple of days, then put it together, add fresh 5 W 30 oil with a quart of MMO, and see how it runs. I'd drive it like it was a new engine, and keep an eye on the oil for any signs of contamination.

With the head already off, you can check for good valve action, rusty valve springs, etc, and find and correct the cause of the head gasket leak.

You can put one of those large shallow plastic tubs under the engine to catch most of the runoff. TSC, et al, usually have them.

speedytinc wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 18, 2023 4:53 pm

Thats a lotta leak from a fresh head gasket.
I would look real hard for a possible freeze crack you may have missed.
How does an external head gasket weep fill an enclosed valve chamber??

You can see evidence of it running down the side of the block behind the manifolds in the center, wicking through the cover casket down the Cylinders #2 and #3, around the center main bolts and onto the Galley floor. After inspecting the copper gasket however, it appears it was a poor seal around Cylinders #1, 3 and 4. so I assume it was going down the cylinder walls to move that much fluid. Once it got down to deck level, it stopped.

The Deck reads flat with straight edge, so I think its probably the head is warped. I have a Z-head for it, so that should solve that issue.

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 18, 2023 4:59 pm

I'd take off the transmission cover plate and the oil pan access cover and drain plug and take a look.

You can probably mop out a bunch of the sludgey oil, if it won't run out by itself. If you're lucky there won't be much of any rust. A good pump up weed sprayer with a mix of diesel and degreaser and water in it can be used to flush out hard to reach areas. That will get rid of contaminated oil and anti-freeze residue. I'd follow that with diesel with motor oil in it, then mop out any places that liquid is trapped with clean rags.

Be sure the oil line is clear. Let everything dry out for a couple of days, then put it together, add fresh 5 W 30 oil with a quart of MMO, and see how it runs. I'd drive it like it was a new engine, and keep an eye on the oil for any signs of contamination.

With the head already off, you can check for good valve action, rusty valve springs, etc, and find and correct the cause of the head gasket leak.

You can put one of those large shallow plastic tubs under the engine to catch most of the runoff. TSC, et al, usually have them.

I drained all of it out pretty easy and its been sitting for a few years so it should have all settled in the bottom of the pan...but i worry that if it was fired like this for any length of time, it could be everywhere. The babbitts I worry about most. Do you feel this method will get those clean enough not to damage anything?

Definitely an engine pull. If your engine is that rusty/sludgy, I can’t imagine how horrible the transmission looks. Is the mains and rod babbit good ? Probably not but if you’re concerned about it, just don’t boil out the engine. A total engine/tranny rebuild can be accomplished at home if you’re up to it.

George House wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 18, 2023 6:11 pm

Definitely an engine pull. If your engine is that rusty/sludgy, I can’t imagine how horrible the transmission looks. Is the mains and rod babbit good ? Probably not but if you’re concerned about it, just don’t boil out the engine. A total engine/tranny rebuild can be accomplished at home if you’re up to it.

I have not yet pulled the pan (That's tonight), so we will see. It's not really rusty per say, just dirty with some staining from the gasket leaking. I don't expect the insides to be a rusty mess, but I agree....I think its gonna need to pull it and strip it to clean it all. I just don't want to run it with anti-freeze in the mains and rod bearings.

No boil outs...I'm not going that far.

Check inside the top of the valve chamber, inline above that coolant lying in there, the late T blocks are well known to rust through into the water jacket.

Head not properly torqued years ago? Head cracked in a combustion dome? (I had one of those years ago, caused a lot of strange problems.)
That is a lot of leakage for a typical block crack. Sounds like someone kept adding coolant as the leakage dropped the level. in the radiator. If the engine was run, even just once for a few minutes after a bunch of coolant got into the oil (usually leaks into a cylinder then slowly seeps down past the rings), that would throw oil and coolant up into the valve chamber where it would sit and separate out to remain for many years.

A crack in the block to leak that badly should be visible, most likely in a cylinder wall or upper surface of the block. It is also possible for the crack to be in the upper areas of the valve chamber.

I'd clean it up, put it together, fill it with plain water, and run it, and watch closely for any evidence of leaks. If it doesn't leak, you're OK.

If it does leak, after a proper head gasket installation, then pull it and find out why.

Is there any chance that this engine froze and cracked while in storage?

Kerry wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 18, 2023 6:42 pm

Check inside the top of the valve chamber, inline above that coolant lying in there, the late T blocks are well known to rust through into the water jacket.

I went out just now and had a look. The top of the valve galley is clean and mostly raw Cast iron colored:





Then I noticed a spot that initially concerned me:



So i hit it with a scraper and some steel wool. Almost all of it came off to reveal solid cast iron underneath. I'm confident the galley roof is fine.



This is the gasket (head surface side). You can see where it was weak or not sealing. The block side is pretty consistent

One thing about an external anti-freeze leak that ran down and seeped through a valve cover gasket, all of the fluid that got into the engine would stay there. No evaporation.
It's also possible that the engine accumulated some internal condensation while in storage. It would also remain in place, protected by a seal of motor oil.

Internal condensation rarely occurs here, but it might be a problem in Vancouver.

I have seen metal objects, especially things like engines, streaming with water condensation on a warm winter day. I've seen the inside of uninsulated metal buildings stream water under the same conditions. Tools in tool boxes become soaking wet. Concrete floors become soaking wet. Under those conditions, engines will sweat water inside and out, as will axles gear boxes, fuel tanks, etc.

(Cold night, followed by Gulf warm front laden with heavy moisture)

Wayne Sheldon wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 18, 2023 6:53 pm

Head not properly torqued years ago? Head cracked in a combustion dome? (I had one of those years ago, caused a lot of strange problems.)
That is a lot of leakage for a typical block crack. Sounds like someone kept adding coolant as the leakage dropped the level. in the radiator. If the engine was run, even just once for a few minutes after a bunch of coolant got into the oil (usually leaks into a cylinder then slowly seeps down past the rings), that would throw oil and coolant up into the valve chamber where it would sit and separate out to remain for many years.

A crack in the block to leak that badly should be visible, most likely in a cylinder wall or upper surface of the block. It is also possible for the crack to be in the upper areas of the valve chamber.

No, it never froze and I don't see any cracks in the block, cylinder walls, valve galley so its possibly in the head.

I feel the real issue is the head being slightly warped and needing a re-torque that was never done. You can see from this photo of the Gasket (Head Side) that it was not completely sealing, allowing it to run down the cylinder walls past the rings and wicking in through the valve galley cover.

This rig sat a lot, so i think was a slow process. it sat in the same heated storage from 2001 to 2022 with Anti-Freeze in it until i drained it yesterday. I think it ran last 5-6 years ago.

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 18, 2023 7:34 pm

I'd clean it up, put it together, fill it with plain water, and run it, and watch closely for any evidence of leaks. If it doesn't leak, you're OK.

If it does leak, after a proper head gasket installation, then pull it and find out why.

Is there any chance that this engine froze and cracked while in storage?

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 18, 2023 7:48 pm

One thing about an external anti-freeze leak that ran down and seeped through a valve cover gasket, all of the fluid that got into the engine would stay there. No evaporation.
It's also possible that the engine accumulated some internal condensation while in storage. It would also remain in place, protected by a seal of motor oil.

Internal condensation rarely occurs here, but it might be a problem in Vancouver.

I have seen metal objects, especially things like engines, streaming with water condensation on a warm winter day. I've seen the inside of uninsulated metal buildings stream water under the same conditions. Tools in tool boxes become soaking wet. Concrete floors become soaking wet. Under those conditions, engines will sweat water inside and out, as will axles gear boxes, fuel tanks, etc.

(Cold night, followed by Gulf warm front laden with heavy moisture)

These are both good points, but I think the need to know now if that has happened and what the Transmission, rods and main bearings, clutches, etc look like and clean if necessary is worth a $38 gasket set in my opinion.

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 18, 2023 7:48 pm

One thing about an external anti-freeze leak that ran down and seeped through a valve cover gasket, all of the fluid that got into the engine would stay there. No evaporation.
It's also possible that the engine accumulated some internal condensation while in storage. It would also remain in place, protected by a seal of motor oil.

Internal condensation rarely occurs here, but it might be a problem in Vancouver.

I have seen metal objects, especially things like engines, streaming with water condensation on a warm winter day. I've seen the inside of uninsulated metal buildings stream water under the same conditions. Tools in tool boxes become soaking wet. Concrete floors become soaking wet. Under those conditions, engines will sweat water inside and out, as will axles gear boxes, fuel tanks, etc.

(Cold night, followed by Gulf warm front laden with heavy moisture)

So I pulled the inspection cover and the hogshead cover and here is what I found. There has definitely been some moisture in this engine, not a lot, but a little bit. its most evident in the transmission. Looks bad, but should clean up fine.



The good news is the bottom end looks pretty spotless. It needs to be pulled apart and cleaned real good, but other then that, its pretty clean.



The inside of the inspection cover however....yuk!

Keep going with the dismantling, besides getting the block pressure tested, the pistons need oil holes drilled for the wrist pins and do away with the wire on the pinch bolts, it will end up in the magneto, use as original, cotters, or go modern, spring washers. Also consider new band linings as those are not fitted correctly.

Goo in the dip pan is very common. A common cause of head gasket failure is debris in the head bolt holes.

I'd wash that thing out, dry it out, put it together and see how the whole vehicle performs.

It's a Model T, not a Ferarri.

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 18, 2023 11:18 pm

Goo in the dip pan is very common. A common cause of head gasket failure is debris in the head bolt holes.

I'd wash that thing out, dry it out, put it together and see how the whole vehicle performs.

It's a Model T, not a Ferarri.

That is true and I'm not gonna go crazy, but I think I would feel better spending a little extra time to blow it apart a little and make sure its clean and the bearings are okay. Gaskets and a couple hours after dinner won't cost me much.

....Besides, I want to swap cams

Clayton if “you feel the real issue is the head being slightly warped”, I don’t think simply retorqueing would appreciably help. I’d mill the head and block face as little as possible and get the head magnafluxed.

George House wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 19, 2023 2:56 pm

Clayton if “you feel the real issue is the head being slightly warped”, I don’t think simply retorqueing would appreciably help. I’d mill the head and block face as little as possible and get the head magnafluxed.

Very valid point, but I don't intend to reuse that head, wasn't planning to from the beginning as I have a brand new Z-Head set aside for it. I was simply remarking that it was possible that is was never re-torqued when the engine was first built and broken in 30 years ago...or the head is and was warped and they never caught it causing it to slowly weep for years. I don't know for sure and can merely speculate.

Regardless, the deck is flat (I will check again once I have the motor apart and the deck thoroughly cleaned) and it's getting a fresh Z-Head ans gasket.....and no more anti-freeze.

ClaytonPaddison wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 19, 2023 3:07 pm

George House wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 19, 2023 2:56 pm

Clayton if “you feel the real issue is the head being slightly warped”, I don’t think simply retorqueing would appreciably help. I’d mill the head and block face as little as possible and get the head magnafluxed.

I don't intend to reuse that head, was planning to from the beginning as I have a brand new Z-Head set aside for it. I was simply remarking that it was possible that is was never re-torqued when the engine was first built and broken in 30 years ago...or the head is and was warped and they never caught it causing it to slowly weep for years. I don't know for sure and can merely speculate.

Regardless, the deck is flat (I will check again once I have the motor apart and the deck thoroughly cleaned) and it's getting a fresh Z-Head ans gasket.....and no more anti-freeze.

You checked the deck with a straight edge. Why not check the head also to confirm your suspicions?

speedytinc wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 19, 2023 3:10 pm

ClaytonPaddison wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 19, 2023 3:07 pm

George House wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 19, 2023 2:56 pm

Clayton if “you feel the real issue is the head being slightly warped”, I don’t think simply retorqueing would appreciably help. I’d mill the head and block face as little as possible and get the head magnafluxed.

I don't intend to reuse that head, was planning to from the beginning as I have a brand new Z-Head set aside for it. I was simply remarking that it was possible that is was never re-torqued when the engine was first built and broken in 30 years ago...or the head is and was warped and they never caught it causing it to slowly weep for years. I don't know for sure and can merely speculate.

Regardless, the deck is flat (I will check again once I have the motor apart and the deck thoroughly cleaned) and it's getting a fresh Z-Head ans gasket.....and no more anti-freeze.

You checked the deck with a straight edge. Why not check the head also to confirm your suspicions?

I will, just haven't yet. I had a few minutes the other night before dinner so I just checked the deck as that was more important. I'll put a straight edge on the head later and see if my suspicions are correct.

It's funny, and I don't know why, but after you do what Kerry suggested and clean things up, I'll bet that thing is going to be just fine. Your babbit did not go swimming in that coolant and honestly, I've seen engines have that much random rust from just humidity. If the rods look odd when you pull to service the pistons, then replace them, but I sure wouldn't be in a huge hurry to tear down AT ALL.

Clean, bands, drill pistons (maybe rods if two sat in coolant), 10-30 oil and run till hot and then drain and call those 4 quarts "insurance".

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 19, 2023 9:53 pm

It's funny, and I don't know why, but after you do what Kerry suggested and clean things up, I'll bet that thing is going to be just fine. Your babbit did not go swimming in that coolant and honestly, I've seen engines have that much random rust from just humidity. If the rods look odd when you pull to service the pistons, then replace them, but I sure wouldn't be in a huge hurry to tear down AT ALL.

Clean, bands, drill pistons (maybe rods if two sat in coolant), 10-30 oil and run till hot and then drain and call those 4 quarts "insurance".

Scott,

I have the feeling it will be fine as well, looks too good inside. I also don't Plan to strip it all the way down:

- Pull the pan/hogshead
- pull the bands and clutches
- pull the rods/pistons
- good cleaning
- oil holes and remove safety wire
- readsemble with new seals, bigger cam and Z-Head

I really don't want it down long, so I'm not gonna drag it out. I haven't heard it run since 2003 and I have other things planned for it.

Clayton

CLUTCHES!!!

boy, you're right, I had not given them a thought. Now is the perfect time to make sure nothing got fused or pitted. That's some clear-headed thinking.

It's easy to test for a stuck clutch, and if it's free, it will rinse out, assuming there's anything to rinse out. If it's not free, the usual remedies may free it without any need to take it apart.

A water/detergent/diesel mix will flush out oily sludge and antifreeze residue. A weed sprayer will allow getting the mixture into tight places.

So I tossed a straight edge on the head. For the most part it's pretty flat. It's slightly questionable on either end, but not terrible. I suspect that is our culprit.

Regardless, it's getting a fresh Z-Head

So I got the engine pulled the other day. I have a bit on my plate, so I won't dig into it fully, but it's out and drained. I'll order up a gasket set and give it a good clean and a refreshing before it goes in.





I also noticed some concern with the rear wheels. The fronts were absolute junk with split, loose spokes, welded in shims (never seen that before, wonder why? ) and most of the pegs that index into the fellow were gone....or worn down to match sticks. I replace them with a good set of fronts, but the rears now give me concern.







I noticed a couple spokes are loose and one or two have a crack. also noticed what looks like some bug damage on one. If I tighten them up, can I get away with running them for now (I'll fill, sand and paint them)...or are they too sketchy to drive on.

If so, does anyone have a better set of 23" TT rears I can throw on this? I don't want to put much into the rears if possible as I plan to retrofit a set of AA wires in the rear and some T 21" wires up front sooner rather then later. I would like to drive it in the interim.

Yes, you can get away running the rears temporarily. You won’t be going fast. Are they dry or still thick with good tenons ? If the former; treat them with a 50/50 boiled linseed oil and denatured alcohol brushed on mixture.

George House wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 29, 2023 6:49 pm

Yes, you can get away running the rears temporarily. You won’t be going fast. Are they dry or still thick with good tenons ? If the former; treat them with a 50/50 boiled linseed oil and denatured alcohol brushed on mixture.

Not dry, no. They would probably benefit from a Alcohol/Linseed oil coating or a paint job. I'm not 100% a fan of natural wood spokes, so I may just seal and paint them black to match the new front wheels.

Hugh chemical difference between Boiled linseed oil and regular linseed oil. The combination I previously spoke of acts to bring ‘life’ back into dry wood and seal the wood. Then you can paint it black.

George House wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 29, 2023 8:25 pm

Hugh chemical difference between Boiled linseed oil and regular linseed oil. The combination I previously spoke of acts to bring ‘life’ back into dry wood and seal the wood. Then you can paint it black.

Okay, good to know! I have regular, not boiled so we are good. I will do that here soon and get them ready to paint.

So I got the TT engine torn down and cleaned. For the most part, it was pretty clean but it certainly had water (not anti-freeze) in the oil a while as it was everywhere. The Anti-Freeze was a newer addition, but it had not run with that in it as far as I can tell.
I did find that the aluminum pistons were in backwards (slot away from the cam), so I pulled them all out, Drilled the wrist pin oil holes as suggested and flipped them the correct direction.
I also took the opportunity to pull and clean the valves (they had water them a little bit) and swap out the stock cam and fiber gear for a .300C full race grind and a steel gear.
Also flushed out the bands (which were new looking) and pulled and cleaned out the clutches. Glad I did, they were gross. On reassembly now, hopefully it will be together and back in this weekend.

New piston rings?

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 13, 2023 6:49 pm

New piston rings?

No, they were fine and had little hours since it was rebuilt. Didn't see the need. Last time I heard it run, it didn't smoke and had tons of compression when I pulled it over by hand.

Good luck.

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 13, 2023 7:46 pm

Good luck.

Think they will be an issue?

Pretty sure the expansion slot in the piston goes opposite the camshaft Clayton.

RajoRacer wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 14, 2023 11:08 am

Pretty sure the expansion slot in the piston goes opposite the camshaft Clayton.

Yup, you are correct....*sigh* I'm like 0-2 on this thing. Was REALLY sure with myself it was towards the cam. Guess I have to redo it now.

Just a few thoughts, based on our pictures.

1. Your main bearing shims look so far out of alignment, with the one end poking out, that it makes me wonder if the other end isn't hanging into the bearing and getting pinched by the crank shaft journal. Wouldn't be the first time that has happened.

2. Your camshaft timing gear looks fairly worn. Have you checked the backlash? Not saying it won't still turn the camshaft, but with the high lift you're running it may be very loud.

3. As Pat alluded to, reusing the rings might not be good thing. The old rings will have been seated in to match the existing bores. They will never go back in with the exact same alignment that they've been seated to, and they will not likely re-seat themselves against the existing mirrored bores. Especially considering that your bores are apparently being used "as-is". I believe new rings, and at least touching up the bores with a light honing, would be best.

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 14, 2023 12:01 pm

Just a few thoughts, based on our pictures.

1. Your main bearing shims look so far out of alignment, with the one end poking out, that it makes me wonder if the other end isn't hanging into the bearing and getting pinched by the crank shaft journal. Wouldn't be the first time that has happened.

2. Your camshaft timing gear looks fairly worn. Have you checked the backlash? Not saying it won't still turn the camshaft, but with the high lift you're running it may be very loud.

3. As Pat alluded to, reusing the rings might not be good thing. The old rings will have been seated in to match the existing bores. They will never go back in with the exact same alignment that they've been seated to, and they will not likely re-seat themselves against the existing mirrored bores. Especially considering that your bores are apparently being used "as-is". I believe new rings, and at least touching up the bores with a light honing, would be best.

1) I will check and re-adjust.

2) It is a used one, but it's not too bad at all. I will check Lash, but i doubt it will be much of an issue.

3) Will order new rings then and hone the cylinders. I don't want a smoker

You won't regret replacing the rings. Honing the cylinders is important, and needs to be done correctly. Check each cylinder bore carefully for wear, taper, out of round, and any other issue. Also check the fit of the rings in the piston grooves and be sure to gap rings correctly.

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 15, 2023 9:12 am

You won't regret replacing the rings. Honing the cylinders is important, and needs to be done correctly. Check each cylinder bore carefully for wear, taper, out of round, and any other issue. Also check the fit of the rings in the piston grooves and be sure to gap rings correctly.

Roger that and will check all. New Ring set will be here Saturday. The engine is a fairly low Hour full rebuild with Fresh bores (they punched it .060" over). It was built in the Early 1990s, but they barely ran it at all. When the High School had it, I remember Firing it 2 or three times and drove it twice for maybe 10 min. 20 years on, it may have been run once or twice since. You can still see crosshatching in the cylinders from when they built and honed it originally, so the block should be great.

That sounds promising.

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 15, 2023 4:32 pm

That sounds promising.

It does. Its a nice engine, it just got water/anti-freeze in it and I had to pull it down to clean it. It was built by an Elderly man and I think once they got it together and found out how slow it was, it barely got use as the Depot Hack was way more usable. Maybe I'll luck out and get it back together this weekend.