MTFCA Forum

This is perhaps a little off topic, but…given
the current state of affairs the question was
raised recently whether or not a Model
T would survive an EMP blast. This a technical
question / subject that is beyond my
knowledge base. Would be interested in
responses from the forum. Thanks.

In theory yes, provided the electrical system is completely stock standard. No electronic ignition or voltage regulator, etc.

A major EMP may or may not kill the engine if it was running at the time of the pulse. That would depend upon a number of factors, including distance and orientation of the car relative to the source of the pulse. However, with no fragile electronics or long line high power, it is very unlikely that actual damage to the circuits would prevent it from starting up and running again.

Under a EMP most of us will have much greater problems than starting our Model T’s. Our current society is so dependent on electricity….well you get the idea. My 22 year old granddaughter would cry her to death if she went more than a hour without social media.

1 thing is for sure,if there is a EmP attack, us Model T folks will suddenly be some of the few folks still able to get around without walking or riding a mule or horse.
I think it might demagnetize the magnets in the magneto but I am not sure about that, the engine block and trans hog head would act as a Faraday box maybe, perhaps we need to run a ground wire to the car when we park it so the charge will go from the car to ground harmlessly.

I wondered the same.
Would an EMP kill the magnets?

Model T's could be the only motor vehicles to survive IF the resulting mayhem & societal break down doesnt kill you making the point moot.

The biggest problem will be uncivil people. (And we have plenty of those)
The profoundly ignorant will run a close second. In the darkness of their ignorance, they will be ill-equipped to help themselves or anyone else.

I believe all the above are correct. I’m sure all my Ts and ‘50 Ford would be operable after an EMP attack. I’m not sure of my 22 Kw Generac though. And an EMP is exactly why I installed it. Supermarkets would be trashed in hours. Cattle in my field would be “harvested” by the unscrupulous in a matter of days.

I think most early cars would fare better than the late model stuff in an EMP event.

A Model A Ford would probably do as well or better than a T.

All major systems should be constructed to permit manual emergency operation.

As it stands, a simple electric power outage will bring down the whole house of cards.

EMP or not, "civilized" countries have a record of destroying vital infrastructure and committing mass murder on a grand scale, using whatever means are available.

You don't have to go back very far in History to see that, and it is going on right now in various locations on various scales. In aggregate, quite a few people are currently living and dying in war zones.

Gas stations will be unable to pump gas, so where would you go.

EMP ; Please help me ;
What is EMP , I am from an other planet .
Toon

Toon, EMP is de afkorting voor Electro Magnetische Puls, bij een grote nucleaire explosie ontstaat een sterk magnetisch veld dat alle fijne electronica vernietigd, (alsof de bliksem inslaat in je TV) redelijk solide electrische systemen als in een T hebben daar meestal weinig last van omdat de circuits door de dikkere bedrading redelijk bestand zijn tegen een plotselinge spanningspiek.

(excuse my dutch, but it is easier for me this way, as we are both dutch)

I second Toon's plea. I could read an explanation in English, maybe even in American.

Allan from down under.

To second Leo's comment, part of what would make the T a more resiliant vehicle in am EMP situation is the heft and pre-IC nature of the beast - the only weak point I can think of would be the primary windings on the coils or the capacitors - maybe - but considering they are (at least the later cars) encased in a metal coil box, I'm not sure that an EMP would have any effect. Of course, I don't happen to have a convenient EMP generator (thank God!!) but the heft and resiliance of the electrical components would make damage due to a "Carrington Event" or worse type pulse difficult if not impossible.

If the generator of said pulse was powerful enough to knock out a T ignition, that might be the least of your problems...

- - - - - -

Om de opmerking van Leo te onderstrepen, is een deel van wat de T tot een veerkrachtiger voertuig in een EMP-situatie zou maken, het gewicht en de pre-IC-aard van het beest - het enige zwakke punt dat ik kan bedenken zijn de primaire wikkelingen op de spoelen of de condensatoren - misschien - maar gezien het feit dat ze (althans de latere auto's) zijn ingekapseld in een metalen spoelkast, weet ik niet zeker of een EMP enig effect zou hebben. Natuurlijk heb ik toevallig geen handige EMP-generator (godzijdank!!), maar het gewicht en de veerkracht van de elektrische componenten zouden schade als gevolg van een "Carrington Event" of erger type puls moeilijk, zo niet onmogelijk maken.

Als de generator van die puls krachtig genoeg was om een T-ontsteking uit te schakelen, zou dat het minste van je problemen kunnen zijn...

Well here you go Allan,
EMP is short for Electro Magnetic Pulse, a fenomenon that occurs when a Nuclear Bomb explodes, the explosion generates a very fierce electro magnetic field that ( not unlike what happens in your T magnet/coil assembly) generates a high current in all kind of electrical and electronic equipment. The generated current can be so high it fries all the little thingamabobs in your precious computer that manages for instance the ignition of your car.
The model T is mostly electric, not electronic, and the wiring is sturdy enough that it will in all probability survive such a calamity.

Haha Susanne you beat me to it !

TRDxB2 wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 19, 2023 8:40 pm

Gas stations will be unable to pump gas, so where would you go.

Gas wouldn't be difficult if you assume all the cars that would be stranded. A bigger concern and far more likely imo is a cme or micronovae. A cme impacted in 1859 and delivered an emp that was sufficient to ignite telegraph wires zap operators and result in the machines operating disconnected from the batteries. It is referred to as the Carrington event and in a time (pre civil war) when electricity wasn't a part of daily life it still made a mess. As the poles shift the magnetic field weakens. Navigational charts have required updates as the poles are moving faster than predicted. Just get in an older car with an internal compass and see how accurate it is. The northern lights have been seen as far south as FL earlier this year. Something that hasn't happened without a major solar storm in decades, there wasn't enough solar activity to warrant the lights. Leaving the best explanation to be a weakened magnetic field. Magnetic field strength hasn't been made public since 2015. There was a Carrington sized flare earlier this year but it missed earth, had it impacted it would have been far worse than an emp attack

Telegraph and telephone wires, along with todays electric grid, would collect huge power surges in a Carrington Event. (Solar storm)

Individual cars and appliances not connected to the grid probably would not, in most cases.

Lightning protection equipment on the modern electric grid might provide at least some protection to the grid proper during an EMP or Carrington event. Such equipment would probably not offer much protection to delicate electronic devices.

Critical infrastructure controlled by delicate electronics needs to have manual over-ride/control capability built into it and personel on staff at all times who can manage the systems if the need arises.

A "driverless" grid is perhaps even more idiotic than a "driverless" motor vehicle.


As things stand today, major disruptions could be brought about without any need to resort to an EMP attack.

Forget your Model T, the coils are exactly what suffers in EMP (It was the coils on the telegraph keys that zapped the operators in the Carrington event, named after Richard Carrington, British amateur astronomer who demonstrated the existence of solar flares). Buy a good bicycle, and a whole lot of ammo.

T coils would not have the same exposure as the telegraph system. Coils in a steel box might have no significant exposure.


I'm not certain that modern auto electronics would be totally vulnerable.

An electric car on a grid-tied charger most likely would be.

The same electric car not on a grid tied charger and parked inside a metal building might not be affected.


A pulse strong enough to affect electronics not tied to the grid might very well shut down a person's nervous system, in much the same way a lightning strike can do.

I'm more concerned that the pump in our well would not work and we don't have a windmill! The Amish will inherit the earth! My food comes from the supermarket. I might have to hunt squirrels and rabbits for food and eat wild weeds. The indigenus people might still have the ability to make it but our family has always lived in or near a city!
Norm

Yet the entire premise of an emp attack is to knock out everything whether or not it's tied into a grid. The power grid going down in a solar storm or attack is pretty much a given. The "surge" when that happens will destroy much. But getting back on topic. . .

Looking at the Carrington event for comparison as I feel it is a better comparison to T era than modern emp thoughts. Batteries seem to survive if there is an open circuit. If not havock on the entire circuit. The same should hold true for generators and coils. The closer the connections the greater the chance of destruction so small circuits and boards toast. If you happen to be driving totally different story. There is of course the possibility of heating wrapped wires in which case you can write off coils. But then it's an eMp and everything discussed is regarding electrical not magnetic. A magnetic pulse might realign the magnetic field of magnets. If that's the case write it all off, generators, magnetos, motors, pretty much everything.

Well folks, I didn't read this entire thread 'cause it exceeds my attention span so I'm just gonna jump in and bring you all back to REALITY.

The REALITY of it is, IF, and I do mean IF, our Ts still work...and frankly I have my doubts what with the magnets and windings if nothing else, but look at the big picture: NO UTILITIES...NO INFRASTRUCTURE..means no water, lights, gasoline to FILL UP OUR LITTLE 10 GALLON TANKS...groceries spoiling as fast as the looters will clean out the stores...fighting in the streets for anything to survive...do you get my point!?! To hell with the cars running, they won't drive away from thugs trying to even take IT away from you in the first place.

Bottom line is, if we get hit by an EMP and trust me the "axis of evil" is doing its level best to develop a high altitude EMP attack device. I could go on and on but I've said enough. I'm glad I'm on the "downhill slide" of life frankly.

In 2010 the question was asked: EMP and Model Ts

https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/1 ... 1292368743

The bottom line may be, will you be able to locate enough Petrol -Gasoline to operate the motor.

Radio stations emit electromagnetic waves, and lightning strikes emit strong electomagnetic pulses.

You can build an AM radio that needs no local power source, by reason of operating off the RF field emitted by the radio transmitter. But you will need a large antenna, and probably a good earth ground, for it to work effectively, and even at that, you will have only a microwatt or so of power to work with. Some devices have a large exposure to external electromagnetic influence, damaging or otherwise, and some have far less.

The vulnerability of a piece of equipment to an EMP/Carrington Event would be affected by its sensitivity and its exposure, as well as its proximity to the EMP source and the field strength. I would expect a Carrington Event to have a very wide footprint.

In the case of power plants, power lines, and related equipment, and a lot of equipment running off grid power, a number of things might come into play that would affect whether damage occured and how severe and widespread it would be. Phase interactions between the grid power and the EMP induced overcurrents would likely affect outcomes at many locations.

More and better surge management equipment is coming into use, and that will likely limit the scope of damage from an EMP or Carrington Event

Don't throw away those copper worms, boys. After the EMP, East Tennessee will be the new energy capital of the world.

The reason that the Military originally selected the GM 6.2 Diesel to power the Hummers was that the 6.2 did not require any electronics to keep it running. They now use the turbocharged GM 6.5 Diesel for the same reason. It is primarily the electronics that will take the big hit after (technically during) a large electromagnetic pulse. Your T will likely be just fine (assuming a stock electrical system) in an EMP, but God help your modern car.

I think the mindset is to not surrender to the enemy so fast.

tdump wrote: ↑

Sun Aug 20, 2023 2:26 pm

I think the mindset is to not surrender to the enemy so fast.

I don't think it has anything to do with surrendering as much as it has to do with what happens or doesn't happen when you flip the light switch or your heat pump or A/C quits working!

THIS my friends is what we need to be concerned with...not whether or not our model Ts will run! Read the following article in the link below. Takes about 3 minutes.

https://mackenzieinstitute.com/2020/04/ ... vastating/

TWrenn wrote: ↑

Sun Aug 20, 2023 3:21 pm

THIS my friends is what we need to be concerned with...not whether or not our model Ts will run! Read the following article in the link below. Takes about 3 minutes.

https://mackenzieinstitute.com/2020/04/ ... vastating/

I'm pretty confident the military and NG have a plan for an emp attack that involves placing the country/effected areas under martial law to quell unrest while they counter and repair.

babychadwick wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 21, 2023 7:07 am

TWrenn wrote: ↑

Sun Aug 20, 2023 3:21 pm

THIS my friends is what we need to be concerned with...not whether or not our model Ts will run! Read the following article in the link below. Takes about 3 minutes.

https://mackenzieinstitute.com/2020/04/ ... vastating/

I'm pretty confident the military and NG have a plan for an emp attack that involves placing the country/effected areas under martial law to quell unrest while they counter and repair.

I will not lose a second's sleep over the Nuclear satellite. If Iran were dumb enough to intentionally set off a nuke over the States, the existence of Iran as anything other then a smoking hole would be measured in minutes, and they know it. Do not forget the nuclear missile submarines. Nuclear missile subs do not need a direct order from Washington to fire.

Nuclear missal subs do not need a direct order from Washington to fire.

That fact alone helps me sleep at night knowing that despite much of the country void of food within 48 hours, no communications for 3-4 months and years to bring back the power grid, simply knowing that we retaliated makes me all the more confident that we will all be just fine. Especially if you rely on the corner 7-11 for your staples. After all, they are close by, right?

An attack on our country would put the citizenry, many of whom are incapable of lighting a match without instructions, back 100 years. A retaliation on Iran would set them back to yesterday (what was that noise, Abdul?)

The fact that at the present time, due to impossibly stretched supply lines, my power company has wait times in excess of 1 year for common maintenance items for their sub-stations, where 3 weeks used to be the norm. While it is strangely clear to some, that I am being well taken cared of by people much smarter than me, all of the smarter people around here tasked with just that, are scared s$itless and are crying from the rooftops.

I find it remarkable that level of confidence and irrational faith in being cared for, exists in a world where we have a 60 year history of abandoning successes and cutting and running rather than bear the shame of victory anywhere in the world. We will bear the unimaginable suffering for that hubris in the future. My only hope is that I'm not here to say "I told you so".

I do wish this had stayed on the "technical Model T track" of discussion, and hope without expectation, that it will head back in that direction.

An interesting book is "One Second After" regarding an EMP attack. I read it several years ago and have passed it on to others. I think my T's would run but I doubt I would want to go anywhere.

I hope it does get back to the technical aspects, BUT this, made me kinda laugh, "An attack on our country would put the citizenry, many of whom are incapable of lighting a match without instructions, back 100 years. A retaliation on Iran would set them back to yesterday (that was that noise, Abdul?)"
naw it would be يا حماقة

ما هذه الضوضاء يا عبد؟

Experts warn that matches are extremely dangerous and they should never be handled by untrained persons.
Matches can flare up unexpectedly, spewing searing flame and hot, extremely toxic gases, including some of the most potent greenhouse gases known.
Persons affected by match flareups and match spew often require years of counseling and therapy to combat the long haul effects of "Fire Brain", broken nails, and inhalation of toxic emissions. Matches are also directly and indirectly responsible for the destruction of our Forest Commons, and so-called "paper matches" are but little better.
A growing youth movement continues to advocate for a total global ban on matches through puppet theatre, peaceful street riots, arson, and general mayhem.

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 21, 2023 2:07 pm

Nuclear missal subs do not need a direct order from Washington to fire.

That fact alone helps me sleep at night knowing that despite much of the country void of food within 48 hours, no communications for 3-4 months and years to bring back the power grid, simply knowing that we retaliated makes me all the more confident that we will all be just fine. Especially if you rely on the corner 7-11 for your staples. After all, they are close by, right?

An attack on our country would put the citizenry, many of whom are incapable of lighting a match without instructions, back 100 years. A retaliation on Iran would set them back to yesterday (what was that noise, Abdul?)

The fact that at the present time, due to impossibly stretched supply lines, my power company has wait times in excess of 1 year for common maintenance items for their sub-stations, where 3 weeks used to be the norm. While it is strangely clear to some, that I am being well taken cared of by people much smarter than me, all of the smarter people around here tasked with just that, are scared s$itless and are crying from the rooftops.

I find it remarkable that level of confidence and irrational faith in being cared for, exists in a world where we have a 60 year history of abandoning successes and cutting and running rather than bear the shame of victory anywhere in the world. We will bear the unimaginable suffering for that hubris in the future. My only hope is that I'm not here to say "I told you so".

I do wish this had stayed on the "technical Model T track" of discussion, and hope without expectation, that it will head back in that direction.

Scott, Perhaps I didn't put it very well. My point was supposed to be that knowing what the consequences would be, there is no way Iran would detonate a nuclear weapon directly over the United States. We would not have to retaliate. The Iranian government may be crazy, but they are not stupid.

Assuming they are not stupid may not be the issue. Suicide bombers do it for Allah.
Religious jellots are more dangerous than the stupid & there's a lot more of them.