MTFCA Forum

There is an old saying, "You must go downhill at the same speed you might go up the same hill!"

The Ruckstell will allow a Model T to go up hill at a fairly good speed.

Going downhill with a Ruckstell may allow the Model T to go faster than is desired or safe.

What is the best way to go downhill with a Ruckstell?

Closed throttle and full retarded spark, intermittent use of brake pedal..... Are we talking about mountain roads or just a bump in a road?

Switch off the ignition, when you get to the bottom switch back on. On steep hills with ignition off alternate between the 3 pedals to allow oil in. Bring the car to an almost complete stop and let it roll forward until speed requires bringing to a stop again. Working this way you can safely work your way down considerable grades without burning out your bands or engine.

Shift it out of Ruckstell and use Ford low or leave in Ruckstell and use the low pedal. When using the low pedal in this case, it needs to be fully engaged, not slipping. Sorry but, turning the key off at the top and back on at the bottom could be a great way to make a very loud "BOOM"!
With the understanding that being in Ruckstell "high" is like 2ed gear in a 3 speed transmission, in between Ford low and direct and Ruckstell low being like a granny gear.

Chad - think about your statement "On steep hills with ignition off alternate between the 3 pedals to allow oil in" - consider what is happening to the inside of the planetary gear action while you're doing that ? No way to proceed BUT using the brake pedal, occasionally letting up to introduce fresh oil - IMO.

I believe the old adage is, "Go down a hill in the same GEAR it would take to go up It" Whether you have a ruckstell or not, the goal is to have engine compression slow your speed down the hill and use your brakes sparingly, if at all. If you are paying attention and looking ahead, you can go around corners, up and down hills and drive for miles and never touch your brake.

I have read about turning the engine off also. If your engine is very "tired" with low compression, that could be an option I guess.

babychadwick wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 26, 2023 10:15 am

Switch off the ignition, when you get to the bottom switch back on. On steep hills with ignition off alternate between the 3 pedals to allow oil in. Bring the car to an almost complete stop and let it roll forward until speed requires bringing to a stop again. Working this way you can safely work your way down considerable grades without burning out your bands or engine.

If death is eminent ok.
Otherwise using reverse will about guarantee expensive transmission damage.
Plan ahead & dont put yourself in this dangerous situation.

I do not agree with alternating between pedals. Use the same gear you came up in. So If you had to use Ruckstell and low pedal together to come up, you use those again to go down. important is to shift to Ruckstell before you start down the hill and be sure it is in gear. You will need to speed up the engine as you make that shift so the engine is going faster as it would go in Ruckstell. Make this shift while the car is going at a speed that you could stop with the brake only before you descend the steep hill. Once in Ruckstell, if you need Ford Low with the Ruckstell do the same. Punch the pedal quickly while you increase the throttle. Once the shift is made, push the throttle all the way up. Now you can use the brake intermittently if needed going downhill. Do not turn off the ignition while the engine is turning! If you turn it off you will still draw in fuel which will be forced out into the muffler and later when you turn on the ignition, you risk blowing off the muffler. With the throttle in the idle position, you draw in so little fuel, it won't make any difference in powering the car. If you do retard the spark, you will also burn fuel in the exhaust system and will cause it to backfire.
Norm

Norman Kling wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 26, 2023 11:30 am

Do not turn off the ignition while the engine is turning! If you turn it off you will still draw in fuel which will be forced out into the muffler and later when you turn on the ignition, you risk blowing off the muffler. With the throttle in the idle position, you draw in so little fuel, it won't make any difference in powering the car.
Norm

Also, turning off the ignition allows raw fuel to wash down your cylinder walls, removing oil and promoting wear.

J1MGOLDEN wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 26, 2023 9:59 am

Going downhill with a Ruckstell may allow the Model T to go faster than is desired or safe.

Not so. With the Ruckstell in low range, you're essentially in "low-gear". Engine drag will by multiplied by the low range, (allowing you to descend slower), just the same as torque is multiplied when climbing a hill. It just becomes a question of, is it low enough for the hill you're descending, or do you still need to get into Ford low?

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 26, 2023 12:07 pm

J1MGOLDEN wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 26, 2023 9:59 am

Going downhill with a Ruckstell may allow the Model T to go faster than is desired or safe.

Not so. With the Ruckstell in low range, you're essentially in "low-gear". Engine drag will by multiplied by the low range, (allowing you to descend slower), just the same as torque is multiplied when climbing a hill. It just becomes a question of, is it low enough for the hill you're descending, or do you still need to get into Ford low?

If you could go up the hill in with Ruckstell engaged using Ford high, chances are you would not need to be using low anyway to go down the same hill.

I'd keep the engine running, especially with a Ruckstell or any auxiliary transmission. You need the engine running to shift auxiliary gears or get to back into gear. Use low gear with the pedal held down hard. If you have lined emergency brakes, they can be used VERY sparingly. On a steep grade, I'd stop at the top and choose what aux. gear I needed, then proceed slowly in that gear, never allowing speed to build.

My understanding of the question was in regards to going down steep downgrades as we should all know how to go down normal hills. I consider steep to be in excess of 10 percent grade for miles. Switching off the ignition regarding the spark flooding the carb is a sure way to get someone off your tail. Spark advanced, no throttle, ignition off and back on will hardly "burp". Alternating between pedals does not mean engage and lock onto the drum, nor does it mean constant pressure. Either option will do damage, I did not feel there was need to explain this. These techniques worked well for me all over the Sierra's.

Regarding washing the walls with gas, if you are that concerned about excess fuel simply screw in the mixture to cut off the fuel.

The Ruckstell low is a geared down Ford ratio so when you are in low range you are going slower than a std ford gear. I am referring to both low and high on the transmission. So when going down a hill that you need extra hold back power, use the R low range.

One thing mentioned above is that the Ruckstell will also increase the power of the transmission brake, because it is reduced just like the engine compression. This works with a Ruckstell or other auxiliary transmission because the gears are behind the transmission brake. With 3 sets of brakes, Transmission brake, auxiliary brake and Parking brake, you should be able to stop when geared down even going downhill.
Norm

One unfortunate nature of the model T is that engaging the E-brake will disengage the clutch and so render the engine braking effort useless. When too quickly running out of road, all options are vital!

Kevin Pharis wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 26, 2023 8:01 pm

One unfortunate nature of the model T is that engaging the E-brake will disengage the clutch and so render the engine braking effort useless. When too quickly running out of road, all options are vital!

Kevin,

I have often wondered at what point during heavy braking, does depending upon the "assist" of engine braking actually make it harder to stop. When does the braking deceleration rate exceed the deceleration rate of the engine? In other words, at what point is the brake decelerating the car AND the mass/inertia of the flywheel/transmission? I could swear that during heavy braking, I can feel added deceleration when I also push the clutch into neutral.

If I may, I think I can answer your question Jerry. It is recommended that the idle adjustment be set as low as possible for the engine to still run. On a steep hill in low gear with throttle and spark up, you shouldn't be going much faster than a walk. At that speed it doesn't take much to stop. If you are in high and things get out of hand and you use the emergency brakes, you are out of gear. Truck drivers are trained, if you are out of gear, you are out of control. Get into low earlier before the car gains too much speed. Use the throttle to control your speed and use your brakes sparingly and save them for when you need to stop.
Your key words are " during heavy braking" which is what you should avoid.

Wow I didn't know this was as big of a topic as wich oil to use, disributers & water pumps? Use the same gear doing down as you would use
going up & the same speed or slower. Gravity is your enemy going up or down! John "if you are out of gear you are out of control" do you mean
if you are not in gear or you don't have a lower gear to go to? A good gauge is if you are not backing up modern cars behind you going down hill
like you did going up you are going too darn fast!!! Auxiliry brakes, auxiliary brakes, auxiliary brakes & auxiliary brakes. If you shut the engine
off & need to increase rpm to get into a lower gear Ruckstell, Warford or otherwise you had better have your Will made out with out them. JMHO
Craig

JohnM wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 27, 2023 10:28 am

Your key words are " heavy braking" which is what you should avoid.

True. But we don't always have that option.

One of the most important things about shifting a Ruckstell down to the low range is to rev up the engine as you downshift. Then slow down the engine after it is in low. So it is important to shift down before you get to the steep part of the hill. In fact you can shift down when just above a stop as long as the wheels are rolling and you can get the engine running at low range. And even more important is to do the shift while you are still slow enough to stop with the auxiliary or parking brake alone because sometimes it your ruckstell could get stuck between ranges and be in neutral. Some have filed a groove in the enternal parts of the shift mechanism to purposely have a free neutral in the Ruckstell. This is a very bad idea.
Norm

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 27, 2023 11:53 am

JohnM wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 27, 2023 10:28 am

Your key words are " heavy braking" which is what you should avoid.

True. But we don't always have that option.

I'm sorry Jerry, I misunderstood your question. I thought you were asking how to use engine compression to safely go down a hill to avoid heavy braking.

A low idle speed is essential for good braking in a Model T.

JohnM wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 27, 2023 12:13 pm

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 27, 2023 11:53 am

JohnM wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 27, 2023 10:28 am

Your key words are " heavy braking" which is what you should avoid.

True. But we don't always have that option.

I'm sorry Jerry, I misunderstood your question. I thought you were asking how to use engine compression to safely go down a hill.

No problem. It was all good advice!

I was on a tour this past weekend, where I used Ruckstell a lot going down hills. No big deal.

I've got nothing new here but to emphasize same gear up same gear down. Going back to the "olden days" on the MTFCA Catalina tours I drove my ice cream truck (weight around 2100 pounds empty) with Karen in the cab and our 3 daughters in the back, all the way down to Long Beach, around 400 miles each way, Catalina Island, and on our way home headed into Yosemite National Park for a couple of days, then back home. Never touched the band adjustments. I'm sure a few people behind me on the island hills were not happy as we traversed down some of the very steep grades. I started at the top of the grade in low band held that pedal down tight all the way down the hill to the bottom. Very slow but no band wear. As you can see in the pictures Tim Stangland in his original UPS truck accompanied us the whole trip

Ed aka #4

I am with Ed. Planning a route to avoid know problem areas, be they
stunt driver training grounds, or steep hills, or whatever, is always the
best plan. When a risky hill is unavoidable, lock the old dog down with
low pedal and crawl to the bottom. If it is double-extra steep and gnarly
drop to Ruckstell low AND camp on the low pedal. Hauling boulders one
time, I had enormous weight on my truck and had a downgrade with potential
side street traffic that presented a risk. I normally just toodle on down the
hill in high gear, but with the weight, I crawled it in double low. Let the
stunt drivers pass or just be pissed. I have no interest in wrecking my truck
so they can get to the mall quicker.

A LOCKED low band does not wear and cannot overheat. The brake band will both wear and overheat under extended duress. The same is true for the low drum and brake drum.

However, its working the tripple gears real hard.
They better be up to snuff with proper clearance & lubrication or you get bushings seized plus.

Coming to a full stop for a minute or two on a long, steep low gear ascent or descent might be prudent. I don't know what else you could do besides limiting speed and making sure you have plenty of oil in the pan, since using low gear engine braking or climbing a long hill in low is bound to load the triple bears. Low oil level on a steep downhill might reduce oiling to the transmission.

Whether you are going up or down a hill in low, going in reverse, or sitting still with the engine running, the triple gears are in action. The only time they are not turning on their pins is when in high gear or direct drive.
They are situated over the deepest part of the crankcase. Your rods and bearings will fail before the triple gears do from lack of oil.

Ed is dead to rights right.

If you're relying on low gear, you MASH that low pedal and hold it. Once you commit to Ford low, you commit. Those transmissions will NOT crap out on you. Serious beans, they were built for the duration! (And yes, the motor will put up with it!)

I remember a LOOOONG time ago when he and Karen came from Calistoga to our folks house in Santa Rosa for Dinner in their centerdoor (I must have been in my teens.... yeah!)... it's one squirrley road from Calistoga to Sana Rosa... but it was then that I realized Ford knew what he was doing, once you locked that "low" band into place, that car was going to stay in Low until the driver gave upon it. It's a lesson I never forgot...

You don't play that low band like a "baby maybe"... you LOCK that mutha into place, and you let those triple gears work their magic. Honest to pre-Godfrey, Ford and Couzins KNEW what they were talking about in that planetary gearbox, it's really darned near indestructable IF you trust it to do it's job.

Have faith in your car. It will NOT let you down.

Love the replies - "turn it off and back on at the bottom" - that dude must sell mufflers.

NEVER change gears on a warford or ruxstel where you might need your brakes. Shift it before going down or live with it as it is. Why? There's a potential gap between the gears that will disconnect your foot from the rear wheels. Obviously this does not apply to a T with aux brakes on it - but you would not be asking how to slow it down if you have some...