MTFCA Forum

I have a 12 all wood body without foredoors. My wife almost fell out while rounding a corner slowly. There is nothing to hold onto except the steering wheel. Any ideas or pictures as to what you have done? Please! Frank

You have a problem! If you anchor them to the wood body and the body separates from the frame, you will go with the body. But if you anchor to the frame, you might be pulled in half if that happens. I don't use belts, but if I did, I would anchor to the body.
Norm

Without seeing the actual body, it's hard to come up with suggestions, but I would agree with Norman.

You could reinstall the front doors.

[attachment=0]669FFC8E-6297-4773-A6CC-43CD537DFB04.jpeg[/attachment]Taped a flashlight to the tank but it is still hard to see the frame.

It might be safer to install a 3" wide leather strap across the door opening with something like a seat belt latch to allow easy entry and exit. I'd want the strap as high as possible and with a broad, flat face.

Stock doors might be very prone to springing open in a turn, especially if turning over an uneven surface. Is the dash close enough to the seat to allow installing a grab rail, something like a robe rail? That might help entering and exiting the car, and could provide a handy place to hold onto.

Sarikatime wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 19, 2023 12:28 pm

669FFC8E-6297-4773-A6CC-43CD537DFB04.jpegTaped a flashlight to the tank but it is still hard to see the frame.

Listen to what Norman says about anchoring to the frame.

Consider anchoring to the body, but not secure enough with the thought of an actual accident/collision in mind. I'm guessing that your wife's near tumble, or a future one, would not take a ton of restraint to prevent. In an actual collision, a seatbelt can lead to an unintended, catastrophic result.

Another thought... my speedster probably has even less support for the passenger. On the heal board, I installed a heavy handle that I warn all passengers to use should they feel the need for something to grab on to. (It's the "Oh sh..." handle)

Hi Frank,
I have seen a speedster that had a steering column mounted on the passenger side, cut short with a T handle bar welded to it. worked as a
hang-on handle & a hand up handle. I have the same issue with my speedster I have installed two leather loops one under the seat & one on
the dash for the navigator to hang on to. I welded seatbelt eyes into the metal body framework in my speedster but have only installed
seatbelts for a event that required seatbelts.
Craig.

Thank you guys, as I stated, it is a 1912 towncar, all wood body, no foredoors available, no dashboard on those years to hang onto. The best suggestion, thank you, is to put seatbelts anchored to the seat wood frame with a 1/4 inch thick 2” x 2” angle iron under the seat frame, then bolted together to keep the frame from bending up. I was not thrilled about drilling a hole in the frame anyway. If we get into a serious accident like Steve Jeff, we should be as lucky as him and live to talk about it.

You didnt mention it is a towncar. The lady should be riding in the back.

I have a similar Town Car and my wife has been riding in it for 59 years and never had a problem sitting in the front seat, but a few other people have.
I would suspect Frank's wife is not a particular fan of old cars and finds sitting high up off the ground with no door or window enclosing her found the sensation of travelling even at a slow speed unsettling if not frightening. If someone is prone to such situations they will react differently to a person at ease. Most probably stiffen, move the wrong direction and possibly instinctively move out of the seat.
The few people I mentioned were exactly like that, they were panicking sitting in the seat before the car even moved. I would suggest sitting in the enclosed back would solve the problem rather than trying to install belts or other devices in the front seat.

The angle iron cross bar is the foundation of the child restraint seats we installed in the back seat of my 1924 tourer. We welded loops of 1/4" rod to the crossbar to take the seat mounting belts. My son's auto engineering mate suggested a separate steel flat bar from the angle iron mounting bolts down to the frame, but concluded that if the mounting to the body gave way, we were already in a world of trouble.

Allan from down under.

Humblej wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 19, 2023 4:51 pm

You didnt it is a towncar. The lady should be riding in the back.

My solution is a bumper sticker bought recently and affixed to the dash (1912 touring). It says

WARNING: NO AIRBAGS
WE DIE LIKE REAL MEN!

The attached is just a though as to driving a Model T Ford...
"Crash test of a Model T Ford" (2011)
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/17 ... 1324400436

Sarikatime wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 19, 2023 4:04 pm

Thank you guys, as I stated, it is a 1912 towncar, all wood body, no foredoors available, no dashboard on those years to hang onto. The best suggestion, thank you, is to put seatbelts anchored to the seat wood frame with a 1/4 inch thick 2” x 2” angle iron under the seat frame, then bolted together to keep the frame from bending up. I was not thrilled about drilling a hole in the frame anyway. If we get into a serious accident like Steve Jeff, we should be as lucky as him and live to talk about it.

I appreciate that you are not installing seatbelts for accident protection, but Steve Jelf would probably be dead if he was wearing seatbelts. I am an advocate of seatbelts and wear them in my modern vehicles, but the Model T was not designed for them, and their correct installation is critical. Some years ago there was a bit of a flap because apparently Ford didn't get the anchor points right in the rear seats of one of it's models, and people sitting in the rear seats were sustaining serious back injuries when the car was involved in an accident. This is not something to trifle with.

With safety of both driver and passengers, reconsidering a protective cage and seating may be in order for driving and enjoying a 100 year old cat in the 21st century.

May be with future restorations, the shops can find a way to integrate reinforcement of the occupants area and still retain originality.

So commented my friend.


https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/thr ... s.1076580/

I think custom half doors would be a good idea.

Seat belts AND anchor points require careful engineering, and the T construction does not provide any suitable anchor points. Ts, especially wood-bodied ones, are not nearly as robustly constructed as modern cars, and they totally lack "crush zones" in either the body or the frame to control impact forces. Seats and cushions are not well anchored. Besides the issue of body and body mount integrity, the T frame is straight and rigid, and any shock to the front or rear of the frame would be transmitted directly to a passenger wearing a seat belt attached to the frame. Side impacts would tend to bow in in the frame, might cause the belt to tighten with great force, and perhaps remain tight if the frame was bent permanently. A straight channel steel frame can be distorted in an impact and then spring back with great force. A channel frame is also prone to very sudden collapse if distorted past a certain point. They are unlikely to bend in a progressive and controlled manner like well-engineered modern automotive structures.

I thought the original poster was seeking a way to restrain a from passenger falling out of the car. A seat belt will surely do this, regardless of the way it is mounted and all the other engineering stuff.

Allan from down under.

Thank you Allan, finally someone gets it. You had the right idea. All the well intentioned was beginning to worry me with all the gore.

The same considerations apply if modern safety seat belts are used. Some type of belt material with a much lower tensile strength than modern safety belts, but using standard safety belt hardware and dimensions, would be a safer choice.

Allan wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 21, 2023 6:16 pm

I thought the original poster was seeking a way to restrain a from passenger falling out of the car. A seat belt will surely do this, regardless of the way it is mounted and all the other engineering stuff.

Allan from down under.

No matter what the original intent was, if a collision should occur, the "falling out restraint" now acts as a seatbelt, with perhaps unintended consequences.

I'm not really trying to stop the OP from doing whatever he wants to do in this case. If I were in his shoes, I'd probably go with a belt of some sort myself. It's just best to know the risks before you make your decision. It's also good to speak of this for the benefit of others who may be contemplating belts themselves. You just have to realize that seatbelts are not stand-alone safety devices. They are part of an overall safety design... that never existed in Model Ts.

perry kete wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 22, 2023 4:18 pm

Just put Velcro on her backside and stick her to the seat!

Dang it Perry Kete!:) you caused me to choke on my mt dew!
I was riding in a 1928 chevy "shortdog" 1 day and got thrown out. It does not feel good ,ground does not flex much!
When i built my pickup,I installed armrest to help "hold in" myself and the passenger from just taking a casual tumble out of the truck

Allan wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 21, 2023 6:16 pm

I thought the original poster was seeking a way to restrain a from passenger falling out of the car. A seat belt will surely do this, regardless of the way it is mounted and all the other engineering stuff.

Allan from down under.

I agree with you, but whether the belts are installed for accident protection or not, the car can still be involved in an accident. If you are going to install seat belts, they need to be installed as if they were for accident restraint; If not, they can do more harm then good.

This is up there with seatbelts for motorcycles. Stupid idea.

Tim, what is stupid about wanting to prevent one's loved ones from falling out of the car?

Allan from down under.

I had a great talk with Frank today..., all is under controlled. Gave him some ideas on a restraining device.

Hank

Reminds me of a story a friend told me about his speedster...
A cop pulled him over and told him his wife fell out while making his last sharp turn.
My friend said, "oh, thank God. I thought I was going deaf."

: ^ )