MTFCA Forum

Hi all,
In looking at period photos of T's, so many have a dull paint finish. Few are really shiny. Is this something with the paint chemistry? Or just dust and dirt? Or lack of car wax? Or time to use the wax?
Just curious.
John

The cars were quite shiny when new, but didn't stay shiny for long. Here is are some old threads on the subject:

https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/7 ... 1490622529

https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/8 ... 1248986809

https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/3 ... 1378431626

https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/4 ... 1413563921

Think in the terms of quality. It just wasn’t that good. The oil that was used in the T era wasn’t as good as what we use today. The paint was the same in comparison.

We use much better oil today and so is the paint.

John,

MANY years ago, an MTFCA member by the name of Reid Welsh did an exhaustive study to find the ingredients of actual Ford Gilsonite. There were many posts by him on that subject. He actually produced several batches and used it to paint his 1922 Coupe.

From what I can remember, it was a mixture based primarily on petroleum. Mainly tar, and was applied by "Flow Process" through a nozzle starting at the top of the body and flowing down to the rocker panel area. This was done by a man on each side of the body as the body moved down the production line. The paint was allowed to run down the sides of the body and run off the bottom. It was then allowed to drip into catch pans and ran back through the system to be used again. This process was used on the body only. All other parts were dipped into a tank of water on the production line, with a layer of paint on the top. As the parts were carried through the tank, it would be drawn up from the water through the paint, thus sheeting the water off with the paint.

The painting process was the most time-consuming operation in automobile production. Before this process was developed, the paint used for automobile body production was more of a pigmented varnish that had to be brushed on in layers. A coat was applied, allowed to dry, sanded, then coated again, and so on.

With the advent of the automobile paint baking oven, invented by John Dodge of the Dodge Brothers, the time to paint an automobile went from hours to minutes. One little problem. Gilsonite apparently only came in black due to the pigment used in the making of Gilsonite. The pigment was lamp black.

With the introduction of quick drying lacquer, cars were then offered in a choice of colors.

If you were already aware of this process, please excuse my refresher, and if I am in error about anything I've posted here, I invite your corrections.

Good luck, John.

Well aware of the process. It just wasn’t as good as paint as we use today and time and the elements has proven that.
I know it’s hard to take sometimes that Model T’s weren’t built as well overall as we restore them today but for their era and Ford building a car that was for the masses the cost had to be affordable for the masses to buy. He wasn’t building Rolls Royce’s or high end cars the farmers and everyday working folks could afford.

"Better paint". Much depends upon the purpose and the application. Here's the better paint on the bed of my 2011 F-150. "Paint" is an elusive subject. For some reason, those of us who have reasonable success with coatings that we have no knowledge of the materials and processes involved in their manufacture feel qualified to hold forth on the composition and nature of "paint" - not only currently, but well into the past.

Here is a photo of my 27 Tudor the day I pulled it out of a warehouse. Note the streaking of the original paint and rust lines. Seeing this at first I wondered how someone would have painted the car. This forum has images of how it was done: using sprayers that wiped/sloshed/smeared the paint on.
I guess the original paint didn't take long to lose the glossy finish due to poor quality chemistry. Tar doesn't stay shiny for long.
John

Sorry. I should have specified NY John T, the original poster.

John kuehn, I know you've been around Ts for awhile. I'm sure you're well versed in the production processes that Ford used.

Again, sorry for the confusion. Happy Thanksgiving, everyone.

Here’s a shiny one from Tom Rootleb’s (Dollisdad) photos. Note the reflection of the rear fender on the side. Probably brand new. It didn’t take long for the gloss to disappear when parked out in the harsh elements, but they did look good for a short time. Jim Patrick

There are many shades of black when it comes to paint.

In 1966, I was told there were 84 shades of black when I had to have my modern car repainted.

All had a slight difference in the mixture contents.

I never saw the list though!

Fro an old tread - the Youtube video is still out there. Its hard to judge the thickness of the paint he's using - looks too thick for flow painting. Yes it would cover but how long before it stops flowing?

By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, August 24, 2011 - 05:56 am:

If you want to make it like Henry, then why not Gilsonite

Here is a video where former forum participant Reid Welch demonstrates Japan black of his own making - should be oven baked for best result:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WAI0sC4tJc

From his description:
"This is the basic finish that made the Model T black.
It is the blackest paint in the world.

It is made from a semi-fossilized asphalt resin called gilsonite,
the oldest viable asphalt in the world, of unique properties,
mined today only in Utah; that stuff, plus linseed oil,
turps, and lead drier, and a hot (400F) oven baking."

Body parts with wood couldn't be oven baket, thus the paint faded in a couple of years, so it isn't recomended for the body, but for all the metal parts it would be possible to recreate today - given lots of time & money for research & experimenting..

I shall not question that it was the Dodge Brothers that invented a process to ovenbake enamel, but you know - there is a world outside the US and it may not be that ingenuis to think a little heat might speed up the drying process.
In 1924-25 Ford Motor Company in Britain not only managed to lower the chassis 3", but they also started to spraypaint the cars with "Pryxoline", which is basicly what we today knows as cellulose paint. It is described in the book "The English Model T Ford", (a book I highly recommend if you are interested in getting a fuller picture of the first world car). It also explains that visitors from Ford Dearborn was learning what they where doing, and even though they only lowered the improved Ford 2" this was basicly achieved by the solutions made by the brits. That included the spraypainting with colorful "Pryxoline" paint.
So maybe others got the same idea than the Dodge brothers elsewhere on the globe - who knows (I have not bothered searching for eventual patents and all - be my guest).

We know that Ford in Copenhagen got tourings from Manchester in 1925 (the low chassis parts are listed in the dansih 1930 spareparts catalog) and I wonder if they also started to spraypaint the cars with colors in 1924 and onwards. And as we also know paint was delivered from a danish paintmaker, who knows if the colorscheme deviated from the US?
There is stilla lot of history to get researched out there!!

PS: If you like the craftsmanship of british coachbuilders and in particular their signmaking in the T-era, take volume 2 of the above mentioned book, as it have tons of pictures of beautiful C-caps and trucks with the most impressive decorations.

Over time, the original gloss of the paint can fade due to exposure to the elements, dust, and dirt accumulation. Also, older paint formulas might not have been as glossy to begin with. Waxing can definitely help restore some shine, but it won't make it look brand new.

Over time, the original gloss of the paint can fade due to exposure to the elements, dust, and dirt accumulation. Also, older paint formulas might not have been as glossy to begin with. Waxing can definitely help restore some shine, but it won't make it look brand new.

I remember guys getting shiny $99 Earl Schieb paint jobs on their cars back in High School. You were king for a few months before the paint faded out to no gloss mess. Cheap paint then, cheap paint now gets the same long term results I figure. It would be interesting to get some Ford formula Japan Black enamel and apply to a panel, and set it outside to document the weathering and fading timeline to estimate how long Ts went from showroom shine to dull appearance.

I am going to post it here just for sake of having it somewhere.

Up until certain folks went for the super-shine chip proof catalyst type paints for 'show' on the running gear, there was an accepted practice that everyone felt came closest to the 'look' of original running gear paint and WAS the paint of choice for the early Stynoski [other club] annual 'best' awards.

A quart of pre EPA Rustoleum Black, a quart of Rustoleum Clear, mix them together apply with a good quality brush. This was the common solution from the 50's through the late 70's. I understand that when the EPA got involved, Rustoleum Clear sort of disappeared?

Just mentioning for posterity...point of reference as I'd accept it on face value that it was pretty close.

modeltspaz wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 22, 2023 5:59 pm

John,

MANY years ago, an MTFCA member by the name of Reid Welsh did an exhaustive study to find the ingredients of actual Ford Gilsonite. There were many posts by him on that subject. He actually produced several batches and used it to paint his 1922 Coupe.

From what I can remember, it was a mixture based primarily on petroleum. Mainly tar, and was applied by "Flow Process" through a nozzle starting at the top of the body and flowing down to the rocker panel area. This was done by a man on each side of the body as the body moved down the production line. The paint was allowed to run down the sides of the body and run off the bottom. It was then allowed to drip into catch pans and ran back through the system to be used again. This process was used on the body only. All other parts were dipped into a tank of water on the production line, with a layer of paint on the top. As the parts were carried through the tank, it would be drawn up from the water through the paint, thus sheeting the water off with the paint.

The painting process was the most time-consuming operation in automobile production. Before this process was developed, the paint used for automobile body production was more of a pigmented varnish that had to be brushed on in layers. A coat was applied, allowed to dry, sanded, then coated again, and so on.

With the advent of the automobile paint baking oven, invented by John Dodge of the Dodge Brothers, the time to paint an automobile went from hours to minutes. One little problem. Gilsonite apparently only came in black due to the pigment used in the making of Gilsonite. The pigment was lamp black.

With the introduction of quick drying lacquer, cars were then offered in a choice of colors.

If you were already aware of this process, please excuse my refresher, and if I am in error about anything I've posted here, I invite your corrections.

Good luck, John.

Super interesting, thank you!

A most interesting , very detailed, investigation to Model T paint & what was used where. https://www.fordmodelt.net/m/p-r.htm

CONCLUSIONS (of facts presented from the study)
There are four main conclusions to be drawn from this investigation. First, the paints used on Model T's during the black era years of 1914 to 1925 were really color varnishes. These types of paint bear little resemblance to the modern automotive finishes used today when restoring a Model T.

Second, over 30 different types of black paint were used at the same time to paint Model T's. The different types of paint vary according to the means of drying them (air versus oven drying) and were also formulated to satisfy the different means of applying the paint to the different parts.

Third, Model T's during the black era were painted using the techniques of brushing, dipping or flowing the paint on. Paint spraying equipment for finishes did not come into widespread used in the Ford factories until 1926.

Fourth, the color black was chosen because it was cheap and it was durable. Black paints, especially those containing asphaltum, were noted for exhibiting better damp proofing properties than other colors during this period. The claim that black was chosen because it dried faster than any other color is not supported by the Ford engineering documents, the contemporary literature, nor by the first hand accounts of Ford Motor Company employees.
--
What was painted with what black paint

The short answer is that most paints in the T era aged quickly, especially if the car lived outdoors.

Here comes the long answer:
Early Ts were hand painted using carriage painting techniques. Painters primed the body, applied about three coats of ground color, and finished with multiple coats of clear or tinted varnish. All this was done by hand in rooms that were as dustproof as possible. The whole process took days and could not be sped up. The resulting finish could be gorgeous, but it aged poorly. The varnish crazed easily, and it yellowed with age. (Antique furniture and oil paintings used similar varnish, and they have the same issue to a lesser degree.) Unless the car was babied, it was common to have to get it repainted every year or two. (Sidenote: the stories of early T greens and blues being "nearly black" probably come from seeing original paint under a couple layers of badly yellowed varnish.) Surprisingly, some people still vehicles by brush. If you look for "traditional coach painting" or "coach enamel" you'll find information.

1913 - 1925 Ts were black and painted by the sprayers that looked like several garden hoses on a stick. The paint was Gilsonite-based, and it required air drying in a dust free room. They said that the average touring car body had about 11 gallons of paint flowed on, of which one to two gallons stayed on. I saw legendary "Rip Van Winkle" 1917 touring car at Bakersfield some years ago, and the original paint was very shiny but had a shallow depth of shine. It's kind of hard to put into words, but almost imagine a tin can sprayed with gloss spraypaint and still wet. This paint was sturdier than traditional coach painting, but it aged poorly. Incidentally, some other cars of the era had black hoods and the body in color. The Gilsonite-based paint could take the engine heat better.

1926 - 1927 Ts were finished in Pyroxylin aka nitrocellulose lacquer. Dupont had introduced it under the brand name "Duco" in 1923, and the first car to use it was the 1923 Oakland. It was just better paint than anything else available, it was repairable, and best of all, the stuff dried quick!

Bright as a new penny!