MTFCA Forum

Dumb question: can the front wheel hub be replaced by simply unbolting it, popping it out and bolting a new one on? Spindles are all tight and sound.

Yes I have done that a long time ago. Just gotta be real careful not to "upset the cart"!! Not quite sure the connection to the spindles, but if the spokes are all "guten tight" it can be done. And btw...there's no dumb questions I was told long ago by a work mentor, only dumb answers!

Thanks Tim, I was thinking that it was possible. I know I’ll have to buy new hub bolts and peen them over once installed as well.

Bill, it can be done, BUT, it can also be a real pain in the ass. First you have to get the outside plate off. All paint/dings/rust must be cleaned off the outside of the hub to give you the best chance. Any load applied to force it of is counter-productive as it will cause the outside edge of the plate to dig in, making it even more difficult. It is best to drive it around the hub a bit, so you can use a pin punch from behind to ease it off bit by bit.Once you get the plate off, the hub should need to be pressed out if the spokes are as tight as they should be. If you can just tap it out, the wheel may not be worth persevering with. Relying on the 6 hub bolts and the outside plate to hold things tight is not something i would risk.

To press the hub out requires a substantial collar to support the hub end of the spokes. You need to be careful that the load applied to a front hub does not damage the thin hubcap end of the hub. The rear hubs are much more sturdy.

Getting the hub out is much easier with Canadian wheels with the double taper on the hub end of the spokes, as is re assembly.

Hope this helps, Allan from down under.

Others may disagree but if you don't want to peen the bolts, you could use loctite.

Oldav8tor wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 21, 2024 4:37 pm

Others may disagree but if you don't want to peen the bolts, you could use loctite.

Tim,

That's most likely adequate to lock the nuts in place, but may be inconvenient if you need to snug them up in the future.

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 21, 2024 5:36 pm

Oldav8tor wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 21, 2024 4:37 pm

Others may disagree but if you don't want to peen the bolts, you could use loctite.

Tim,

That's most likely adequate to lock the nuts in place, but may be inconvenient if you need to snug them up in the future.

Use the green. Retorque & add a drop to each nut.
The green will wick in, where the blue requires removing each nut & a drop directly on the thread.

speedytinc wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 21, 2024 6:42 pm

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 21, 2024 5:36 pm

Oldav8tor wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 21, 2024 4:37 pm

Others may disagree but if you don't want to peen the bolts, you could use loctite.

Tim,

That's most likely adequate to lock the nuts in place, but may be inconvenient if you need to snug them up in the future.

Use the green. Retorque & add a drop to each nut.
The green will wick in, where the blue requires removing each nut & a drop directly on the thread.

Good thought!

No question is a dumb question. You are not sure of the answer, so you are asking for help from someone more knowledgeable.

If you are saying the hub is bad and you need to replace it, you can cut the plate in half with a grinding wheel or other tool. No need to worry about rust and paint and all that other stuff. Just do not cut into the spokes. Then brace up the wheel well, and you should be able to punch the other half of the hub out. Just take care putting the new hub in. They use to sell brand new wheels without hubs, so it can be done.

Peening the nuts allows you to easily re-tension them at a later date when necessary.Then just re-peen them. They do not need to be bashed flat. All you need do is ensure you dump the thread enough to stop the nut beginning to unwind.
I do not like to use the new nuts the vendors supply. They are soft and strip easily. They are wholly machined and look like peas in a pod. Rather, I grind the peened section of the bolt off and save the original nuts. These are larger than the replacements on offer. They are stamped, so each varies a little from the next. They look far better than the new stuff.

Allan from down under.

Wow, great input from everyone; really appreciate it! I’ll have to decide what I’m going to do, but when I do, I’ll have some idea of what to expect!

I just recently disassembled 120 wheels to assess and process them for reuse. I discovered that most of the plates and hub flanges are warped. That is caused not by tightening the hub bolts but, that the lateral movement over time causes them to be bent, or flared, outward by the spokes. I also discovered the hub flange flaring when I trued them on my lathe. The cutting tool makes contact with the flange near the hub and at the center point of the bolt holes, it goes clear of the flange. I found the need to remove up to .050 to get a flat flange. I then used my press and a sanding block to get the plates flat. I believe those steps are all necessary to get a good wheel rebuild.

What Ken describes with the outside plate is indeed common. The effect of the outward dishing of the OD of the plates makes the flange on the hub edge "dig in." The same happens when one tries to lever off a stubborn plate. It is why it is essential to get back to bare metal on the hub before attempting to get the plate off.

I usually dress the plate by hammering out any depression caused by over tightening the six hub bolts, until it is flat again. If it is still dished, I support the OD on an old generator housing and us a press to push the centre down. That saves having to machine them flat. Instead, I have a 4" wide linishing belt on an old bench grinder, and that does a nice job of the same task.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.

To add to Allan's post and to clarify mine, I believe the hub and flange get warped not by tightening the bolts but by the spokes levering left and right for many years. Given the hardness of the hickory and steel plate, the bolts would strip pulling in that far so I say the warp is not from the bolts.
First, I remove the inner race and leave the outer race in. Then I chuck the hub snout and barely clean the large bearing face (lip) to get a good face surface for chucking. I have found that I cannot always rely on that face for absolute accuracy so, I fit the tailstock with a drill chuck and then with one hand holding the two (the wedge into the race), I tighten the jaws outward. Check for true until it is accurate. Back the tailstock away. With a fine point, kiss the inside lip to remove any small irregularities that may restrict the small race removal. This will help to avoid splitting the thin threaded area. While the hub is spinning, I use a wire wheel in a hand drill going in reverse to the hub spin to clean the hubcap threads. With the lathe stopped, I carefully follow with the Stevens T-181 thread chaser.
I cover the lathe bed and clean the flange by cutting from center out. Take only an indicator cut first, this will show how much you will remove. I have removed from .010 to .050 or more.
To straighten the plates, I use my 30 ton press between the bolt holes and use the sanding block only to indicate my work.

Nice work Ken. That Stevens thread chaser is a most valuable tool.

I do wonder how how precise we need to be in some of the things we do when working on these old cars. I have found the steel outer plates far more deformed than the hub surface, and put that down to over tightening the hub bolts, so that's where I focused my attention. Refacing the hub face is a step further. However, we are clamping twelve individual wooden spokes, and we know how much difference there can be in machined wooden components.

Perhaps the New Zealander who makes excellent wooden spoked wheels has the final answer. When he has built the wheel, it is mounted in a big old lathe and then the hub hole and faces are machined.

Allan from down under.