MTFCA Forum

I have a freshly rebuilt front axel that has the wrong spindles (early ones).

I had not idea there were different spindles and as "Murphy's Law" took over my wooden wheels don't go one far enough.

Can I "re-use" the King Pins or do I need new ones?

King pins (or spindle bolts), are the same size for all years. The oiler is different, a twist top for early, and a flip top for later, but the king kins are the same length, dia, and thread size and are 100% interchangeable.

As long as you use new bushings, the kingpins should fit fine

Spindle bearing races are the same size less wear.
The question is, why didnt the wheels go on all the way.

Humblej wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 07, 2024 1:05 pm

King pins (or spindle bolts), are the same size for all years.

Sort of? The '09 thru '14 spindle bolts were a slightly larger diameter, 0.502" to 0.504" and that dimension continued until 1920 when the dimension was changed to 0.500" to 0.504". The original spindle bolts for my 1920 were/are the larger diameter (with their original manhole style oilers). When fitting new spindle bolts just be sure to check they size before reaming the spindle bushings, make certain of what you have and how authentic/correct you want to be.

I was lucky enough recently to find a stash of N.O.S. manhole style oilers, enough to do the car.

Thread from the old Forum:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/70 ... 1493409015

Supposed to be the same size. Ream bushings to fit the king pins you have.
A quick check on the various new bolts vary widely in size. .493, .499, .500, .501, & .503
To further confuse the issue, I see that langs offers .015" oversized.

The original question is not getting answered here....... there were no changes to spindle dimensions over the years that would prevent a wheel from fitting on a spindle, so why is the OP changing spindles to get his wheels to go on all the way??
something is not correct......... furget the issues with the kingpins for a moment.

Could be that there's a mix between the 26-27 spindles compared to the earlier ones. The improved spindles are set a little bit higher, thus lowering the car a bit.

Moxie26 wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 07, 2024 2:40 pm

Could be that there's a mix between the 26-27 spindles compared to the earlier ones. The improved spindles are set a little bit higher, thus lowering the car a bit.

Yes, but the wheels would mount just the same.

Dan McEachern wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 07, 2024 2:16 pm

The original question is not getting answered here....... there were no changes to spindle dimensions over the years that would prevent a wheel from fitting on a spindle, so why is the OP changing spindles to get his wheels to go on all the way??
something is not correct......... furget the issues with the kingpins for a moment.

Is it possible that the ball bearing cones are still installed on the early spindles?? That would certainly prevent wheels from going on far enough.

John,

Can you post some pictures?

Pay attention to the original question!

Original Smith... Please share your fix to this problem

Need more specifics, John - assuming you are wanting to exchange "early" spindle for '26 - '27 style ? Dan stated the obvious & asked the proper question.

John_Aldrich wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 07, 2024 12:35 pm

I have a freshly rebuilt front axel that has the wrong spindles (early ones).

I had not idea there were different spindles and as "Murphy's Law" took over my wooden wheels don't go one far enough.

Can I "re-use" the King Pins or do I need new ones?

Since you show having a 1915, 1923 & a 1927 which axle has the "early" ones the 1923 or 1927?

Also what spindle arms do you have?
From the MTFCA Encyclopedia
On January 31 (#36,972) the new axle with the two-piece spindles appeared. The tie rod now was below the wishbone. The steering drag link was threaded at the column end with a coarse thread (13 T.P.I.). Brass oilers on all joints except the drag link.
1911-1912
Same as later 1911. The steering arm with the hole for the speedometer, introduced in August 1911, was standard. Radius rod and drag link caps changed to forged type sometime during this era.
1913-1914
Steering drag link had integral ball sockets riveted and braced in place at each end. During 1913 the radius rod ball was secured with two studs, springs, and nuts, replacing the bolts used since 1909. In addition the cap was made a bit stronger by adding reinforcing ribs to the “ears” through which the retaining studs passed. The steering tie rod adjusting yoke now had its locking bolt parallel to the spindle arm bolt (vertical as installed on the car).
1915-1917
Similar to 1914 but the right steering arm no longer had the hole for the speedometer gear assembly. Oilers evolved from the brass type to the pressed metal type.
1918
The drag link now had integral forged ends, replacing the riveted-brazed type used since 1913. The steering tie rod was changed to the type with the integral left socket; the adjustment was now at the right end and was locked by the ball nut.
1919-1920
The front radius rod now fastened below the axle at the spring perch studs. Steering arms modified so that the tie rod now was above the wishbone. Oilers were all of the flip-top type. Spindles made a bit longer to better accommodate the new Timken roller wheel bearings.
1921-1925
Similar to 1920 but mounting holes in the radius rod now bored to fit a tapered nut for a tighter grip at the front axle.
Early 1922 Parts Lists show spindles with integral arms (one piece). These were described in a letter to the branches dated February 2, 1922:
T280C Spindle assembly, R
T281C Spindle assembly, L
“Starting Feb 6th we will begin making shipments of the above assemblies. The T-280C will eliminate the use of T280B spindle body, T7715B spindle arm, T77 nut, and T82 cotter. The T281C will eliminate the use of T281B spindle body, T7716B spindle arm, T77 nut, and T82 cotter. For some time you will receive both types� We will advise when full production will be new style.”
Then on another letter, dated May 17, 1922, the following”
“We have temporarily discontinued the manufacture of T278D and T279D, spindle assembly right and left. Therefore do not order any more until you are notified to do so. The above assemblies may be replaced with the T280 and T281 spindle bodies and the T7715B and T7716B arms.”
(T280 and T281 are spindles without the bearing cones, T278 and T279 are the same parts with the bearing cones. The one-piece type were never used again in a Model T.)
1926-1927
Similar to 1925 but spindles are higher on the spindle body to lower the chassis. New steering drag link which is about an inch shorter than the previous type. In late 1926 the axle was modified and now had a “droop” or “sag” between the perches.

Don't go confusing him Frank - him & a T buddy are building up a '26 - '27 Hack ! John was a bit vague on his original question !

Thanks Dan for trying to keep the conversation on the question.
Craig.

Moxie26 wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 07, 2024 1:22 pm

As long as you use new bushings, the kingpins should fit fine

This answered my question. THANK YOU!

Thumbs up, John,. ... glad you fixed your problems

Moxie26 wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 08, 2024 3:29 pm

Thumbs up, John,. ... glad you fixed your problems

Explain why I have 2 different sized bearing surfaces.

Spindle Differences

John... You have two different spindles. What car are you working on?.. .....

Moxie26 wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 16, 2024 5:00 pm

John... You have two different spindles. What car are you working on?.. .....

building a 1924 depot hack

You need to obtain matching spindle for the other side. These spindles use the tapered roller bearings in the wheel hubs, The earlier spindle use ball bearing style with separate races. .... Brass bushings go in to top and bottom of the spindle and should be fitted by reaming to the spindle bolts for that particular year car.

John_Aldrich wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 16, 2024 5:16 pm

Moxie26 wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 16, 2024 5:00 pm

John... You have two different spindles. What car are you working on?.. .....

building a 1924 depot hack

The lower spindle in your photo , Factory Number 203 B, Right, is for 1911-1917 cars. That spindle uses the ball bearing race and ball bearing inner, that is why the race shoulder is short.


The other spindle is later, for the Timken bearing race and inner bearing.


The Timken spindle will have Factory Number cast in the body '280' for right side spindle body.

RajoRacer wrote: ↑

Sun Apr 07, 2024 5:49 pm

Don't go confusing him Frank - him & a T buddy are building up a '26 - '27 Hack ! John was a bit vague on his original question !

He's building a building a 1924 depot hack and has two different front spindles. Should have looked at the picture.

Last time I spoke to John, it was a later style chassis - musta changed direction as he's been purchasing '26 - '27 parts from me !

RajoRacer wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 16, 2024 8:54 pm

Last time I spoke to John, it was a later style chassis - musta changed direction as he's been purchasing '26 - '27 parts from me !

Still headed same direction Big Guy.

John, to my eye, neither of your spindles is correct for a 1924 car. The lower one is early and takes the ball races. The top one appears to have the off set typical of the 26-7 cars.
The ones you need have the shoulders under the bushings like the 26-7 one but the spindle height in the middle like the early one.

Allan from down under.

RajoRacer wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 16, 2024 8:54 pm

Last time I spoke to John, it was a later style chassis - musta changed direction as he's been purchasing '26 - '27 parts from me !

It's a "bitsa" Hack Steve. Couple of guys locally over here are getting rid of T parts so I'm doing my part to help them!

The engine is a 1924 so we are calling the Hack a '24.