MTFCA Forum

I have a T issue that I have been unable to solve. My '27 cranks really slowly, and I don't think it's the starter motor. I have jacked up a rear wheel and that doesn't seem to make a difference. It also is hard enough to crank by hand that I can't do it. It will start, but it's got to be beating the h--l out of the starter. I need a fresh set of eyes. I am willing to compensate someone who can solve this problem for their time.

Sorry John but I'm not in Florida... I would check the neutral adjustment on the emergency brake , and take a full turn off on each of your band adjustments..... What weight oil are you using?... Any 10W30 oil will be easier to start , and also protect the engine in hot weather...... Good luck!

Double check the battery connections especially the ground if you don't believe it's starter related.

The starter on my wide body roadster was also labouring. My Auto-elec son found a hot terminal at the foot starter switch. A thorough clean and re-assembly solved the problem. In his words, "6 volt systems need to be squeaky clean at all connections."

Allan from down under

Robert - I am using a good 10 W 30, I think the neutral adjustment is in the ballpark - It doesn't have much of a tendency to "creep" when it's in neutral. I will check all of the battery connections - I have already done so at the battery, but I doubt that is the problem. It cranks over very hard when hand cranking - too hard for me to really crank it by hand. I'm thinking something in the transmission, but that's over my head unless it's an adjustment.

I could be wrong but I don't think too many T folks are in the Naples area. A question...who maintains the Edison T at Ft. Myers? That may be a lead to T people in the area.

Since you may need to resolve this remote...I'd look at it this way were I to be the guy who came over (Not...too far away)

You mention 'tight' with an implied 'wasn't all that tight before'.

Jack up the rear, either whole or one side, add a jack stand...front wheels chocked...brake lever forward...key off...hand crank...does it spin easier, yes or no? If yes, whatever the issue is, it's tranny related. If no, it is something else that probably warrants a look see up through the pan, and a look through the timer cover at the gears and mesh. Is the Bendix 'stuck'? Usually, a quick push backward with a 4 wheels on the ground will get one to un-pop.

Further to the spins easier - yes There is also a chance that your tranny plates are stuck and somehow torque is passing through. A bit more complicated, but with the rear on stands completely, and chocked front wheels, stick forward, get the car started somehow/someway and then get chancey...start the brake stick back from forward and if the car fights you, its most prob clutch plates and 'goo' from sitting. Just have folks stay away from the front, and jerk the stick back at low idle...if it is stuck clutch plates due to sitting goo...they will usually free up by the 3rd or 4th time you jerk.

Now, on to step #2. If you have not found out already, if for any reason the voltage drops below 6 to about 5.8...the T starter is basically useless. Measure at the stud on the starter to ground while someone presses the starter button. If low, go find out why, could be old battery, most probably an old switch that needs rebuilding or a lose connection. If the loose connection is at the starter stud...be careful, you just can't straight out wrench it tight! Need to also hold the stud itself or starter damage follows. If 6.3V or so it's probably not your starter lagging but mechanical drag somewhere else.

That's how I'd start out. For what it is worth....

Thanks for the replies, folks. I didn't mention this, but this car (a '27) has been like this since I bought it almost ten years ago. It always starts, but just barely. If it had a conventional distributor ignition system, I don't think that it would. My concern is that one start like this is probably the equivalent of ten or more as far as the starter goes.

John, Im in Melbourne, still over 4 hours away. Feel free to PM me and I will send you my phone number. Maybe between the two of use we can figure it out.

A T in Florida in late April with 10W30 oil in it should be easy to turn over with the hand crank or with the starter. I'd remove the spark plugs and try cranking it with the lever pulled all the way back, and again with the lever straight up and down. With the plugs out and the controls in "neutral" the engine should spin easily. If it doesn't spin easily, you probably have a band or linkage adjustment issue. If it's been that way a long time, it's almost certainly not tight bearings or tight rings or rust. I'd look for band, brake band, or clutch linkage adjustment issues or excess wear in the pedal ramps or any other linkage parts, or bent parts.

John Codman wrote: ↑

Tue Apr 30, 2024 12:37 pm

Thanks for the replies, folks. I didn't mention this, but this car (a '27) has been like this since I bought it almost ten years ago. It always starts, but just barely. If it had a conventional distributor ignition system, I don't think that it would. My concern is that one start like this is probably the equivalent of ten or more as far as the starter goes.

Been "like this I got it". Any prior history??
Was this a "new rebuild" Set up bearings too tight? Tight pistons or wrist pins?
You need to figure out why the motor is tight.
I agree, an experienced T guy does need to take a look & feel the drag.

A little history on this rather unique car: I bought it from the wife of the previous owner who bought the car, bought a brand-new set of real Firestones, then died. He never drove the car. Prior to that, it lived on Naushon and Nonnamessett Islands off the coast of Massachusetts. These private islands are owned by the Forbes family - Forbes as in John Forbes Kerry. It obviously was garaged, as there in minimal rust, and since the islands have a total of less then five miles of roads (all unpaved) this T may be one of the lowest mileage continuously used Model Ts in existence. It has been repainted, but is not restored. The frame and engine numbers match, and I have no reason to believe that anything major has ever been replaced. The bands are clearly not original, and Ron Patterson has rebuilt all of the coils. I have replaced about 90% of the wiring harness with very good reproductions, and of course I installed a new flat-tube radiator, but that's about it. Once started, it runs extremely well.

The low, brake and reverse pedals should have adequate free play before the bands tighten. Sometimes the ramp wears and there is very little side movement in the pedal shafts so the bands are taken up in order to be able to apply the pedals to lock the drums. When that happens, the bands are usually too tight and drag on the drums. This leads to quick band wear and overheated drums which will be indicated by a bluish color of the drums. Eventually leading to cracked drums.
Another thing which happens is when the car is parked a long time with the parking brake on, the oil between the clutch plates will get thick and sticky which will cause the clutch to drag. If you are going to park longer than a day or two, chock the wheels and leave the brake handle forward. This will force the oil out from between the plates and then when you pull the brake back the oil will not stick between the plates.
Another thing which could add to the drag would be if you are using a high compression head. The higher compression can cause it to be harder to crank.
These are other things to consider beside those listed above in the other posts.
Norm

Thanks Norm - and others.
No High-compression head. When I first bought the car it had a massive overheating problem. I pulled the head to see what the cooling system looked like, and I'm sure that was the first time the head had ever been off. In my younger hot-rodding days we used to say whatever you do to the top, you have to do to the bottom. I would never put a high-compression head on a nearly100-year-old engine, without doing something to the crank (as in replacing it with a new one). I think I'll take the advice of the person who suggested backing off the bands a bit and see what happens.

The overheating could easily have been related to whatever is causing the engine to be hard to crank over. I'm a long way from your car, but from here, it sure looks like dragging bands, or maybe more likely, a *dragging CLUTCH*. Dragging bands will usually overheat and cause trouble pretty quickly if the car is driven much at all. However, since the clutch is engaged most of the time, it could drag significantly in "neutral" and yet not overheat unless the car was allowed to run at fast idle for a considerable time while held in "neutral".
In warm Florida weather with clean 10W30 oil and no STP or other viscous additives, the car should show virtually no "creep" at all, and none when warmed up.

John Codman wrote: ↑

Mon Apr 29, 2024 10:10 am

I have a T issue that I have been unable to solve. My '27 cranks really slowly, and I don't think it's the starter motor. I have jacked up a rear wheel and that doesn't seem to make a difference. It also is hard enough to crank by hand that I can't do it. It will start, but it's got to be beating the h--l out of the starter. I need a fresh set of eyes. I am willing to compensate someone who can solve this problem for their time.

So..... where to start?
The explanations of the effect of tight bands would logically account for not being able to crank it by hand or starter. Its also the easiest thing to check and correct if necessary. It would also allow a visual for making sure its not hanging up a bit in neutral.

What have you tried so far?

A dragging clutch has been ruled out.
Starting with one wheel up & in gear removes the clutch from the equation.
Tight bands could be an issue. Easy enough to back them all off. Are the drum surfaces rusty, adding that as a drag?
I would be doing all my testing with the hand crank, in gear with a wheel up. Note the effort to crank & use as a bench mark for any attempted fixes/changes.

@ this point I am thinking tight crank/rod bearings(seem least likely) or piston drag.
Stock iron pistons were fit rather tight & the rings are 1/4" wide.
I would note hand crank friction. Remove the plugs. Hand crank. Note friction. Squirt some Automatic transmission fluid into each cylinder. Let sit.
Hand crank several revolutions. Any change? If positive, put the plugs back in. Hand crank. How does this compare to before the ATF? Next I would run it thru a few heat cycles, compare cranking friction while still hot & when cold.
If I saw no or very little positive improvement, I would remove the inspection cover & make sure the rods had some side play.
Anyway, thats how I would proceed if I had the car in my shop.

The part about "it's been that way a long time" and "runs well once started" leads me away from tight rings, pistons, or bearings. I'm going on the assumption that the car has been driven a significant distance under the current owner's custody.

Could both the clutch and the parking brakes be dragging?

John , about how many miles have you put on this car since you've owned it?

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Thu May 02, 2024 10:02 pm

John , about how many miles have you put on this car since you've owned it?

I'm embarrassed to say not a lot. We moved from Massachusetts to Florida about seven years ago, and setting up the new (to us) house involved two major construction projects. About the time that was completed, my bride was diagnosed with a terminal illness that has pretty much taken me away from the T. Anne passed in November of 2022, and I'm finally ready to resume something close to normal life.

If the engine runs well once started, you almost certainly have bands dragging and/or parking brakes dragging. If the engine has not been rebuilt recently, or ever, it's very unlikely that it is stiff from tight clearances.

All of the pedals should go toward the floor several inches before meeting any significant resistance, and all of them should be near the floorboard before they stop going down under normal foot pressure. It is not normal for a T to have "high" pedals like a modern vehicle.

Thanks Pat,
The High/Low pedal has virtually no play - maybe 1/4 inch tops. I'll back off on the band and see what happens. Thanks for the tip.

Any of the the 3 pedals should go down to within an inch to an inch and a half of the floorboard when pressed firmly with your foot. If any of them don't, it usually indicates an adjustment problem. Your car probably does not have significant wear on linkage parts or bent pedals.

Just curious ......

John... Did any fellow T'er in your area come and knock on your door to help you?

Moxie26 wrote: ↑

Sun May 05, 2024 11:03 am

Just curious ......

John... Did any fellow T'er in your area come and knock on your door to help you?

No, but as was mentioned earlier, there are not a lot of T people around here. I have seen only two different Model T's hereabouts in the seven years that I have lived here. I have seen lots of Vintage Mercedes-Benz, Maseratis, and a few pre-war Buicks. When your daily driver is a Bentley, I think probably a Model T would be a little plebian for you. For the record, my daily driver is not a Bentley, and I have only driven one once. That was from an alignment rack to the shop parking lot.

John... With all the verbal help you had here on the forum, I'm sure you'll be riding in class in your Model T very very soon.

If you have one of those braided ground cables that might be the problem. I went a little nuts with a slow cranker and finally found the problem when the braided portion started to smoke. A new heavy duty cable make quite a difference. I went through the starter and the connections but never noticed that braid getting hot until it REALLY got hot.

Charlie, your experience is just like mine. Heat from a compromised contact led to sorting out the slow starter problem. Yours was at the frame, mine at the starter switch. It is an easy check to make, before one goes deeper into other things.

Allan from down under.

I may have missed it, but how was the starter ruled out? I’ve seen a number of starters that had a loose stud where it was pinned to the field coils. That results in a huge voltage drop.

Small cables will have excessive resistance. One way to check for excessive voltage drops is to put volt meter leads at the positive battery terminal and the other lead at the starter positive stud. With the volt meter set on the lowest DC volt setting, have someone crank the engine over with the starter and see if there is a voltage reading. Anything over a 1/2 volt is excessive. If the connections and cables are perfect (there is always some voltage drop) there will be no drop. Do the same thing on the negative cable. Battery negative to the starter case.
If there is less then the 1/2 volt total then check the starter. Usually you can remove the cable at the positive post of the starter and remove the insulator then see if the stud wiggles easily. If all those items are ok have your battery load tested with a full charge. Let me know what you find.

Kenny Edmondson wrote: ↑

Thu May 09, 2024 9:57 am

I may have missed it, but how was the starter ruled out? I’ve seen a number of starters that had a loose stud where it was pinned to the field coils. That results in a huge voltage drop.

Small cables will have excessive resistance. One way to check for excessive voltage drops is to put volt meter leads at the positive battery terminal and the other lead at the starter positive stud. With the volt meter set on the lowest DC volt setting, have someone crank the engine over with the starter and see if there is a voltage reading. Anything over a 1/2 volt is excessive. If the connections and cables are perfect (there is always some voltage drop) there will be no drop. Do the same thing on the negative cable. Battery negative to the starter case.
If there is less then the 1/2 volt total then check the starter. Usually you can remove the cable at the positive post of the starter and remove the insulator then see if the stud wiggles easily. If all those items are ok have your battery load tested with a full charge. Let me know what you find.

This is excellent advice! Anxious to see the results of these tests.

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑

Thu May 09, 2024 10:36 am

Kenny Edmondson wrote: ↑

Thu May 09, 2024 9:57 am

I may have missed it, but how was the starter ruled out? I’ve seen a number of starters that had a loose stud where it was pinned to the field coils. That results in a huge voltage drop.

Small cables will have excessive resistance. One way to check for excessive voltage drops is to put volt meter leads at the positive battery terminal and the other lead at the starter positive stud. With the volt meter set on the lowest DC volt setting, have someone crank the engine over with the starter and see if there is a voltage reading. Anything over a 1/2 volt is excessive. If the connections and cables are perfect (there is always some voltage drop) there will be no drop. Do the same thing on the negative cable. Battery negative to the starter case.
If there is less then the 1/2 volt total then check the starter. Usually you can remove the cable at the positive post of the starter and remove the insulator then see if the stud wiggles easily. If all those items are ok have your battery load tested with a full charge. Let me know what you find.

This is excellent advice! Anxious to see the results of these tests.

Agreed, this would rule out/in the starter.
OP leads me to something else by his statement.

"It also is hard enough to crank by hand that I can't do it. It will start, but it's got to be beating the h--l out of the starter."

Is this a misperception? An old T hand cranks pretty easy, if the clutch isn't dragging.
Clutch drag was eliminated from the equation by lifting a wheel & cranking in neutral.

To add to your starter testing: If all the above checks out look @ amp draw while starting. Also the Bendix can be removed & the strength of the starter motor can be manually tested by trying to stop it spinning with a shop rag or work glove. There can be unseen internal insulator issues.

Again, thanks for all of the comments. I'm leaning to a dragging High/low band, The last few days have been hot as He-- here with equally high humidity. Although the T is in my garage, it's just too hot to work there. The garage is the only "room" in the house that isn't air conditioned. I have an AC unit that I could use, but then I'd have to cut a hole in the wall and insulate the steel garage door...

I had a Ken Meeks engine years ago that he built for a club member. It was so tight that I had to stand on the crank handle to get it to turn over when setting the tiner. I was amazed when the starter turned it over when I actually went to start it.

If the engine is that tight, it needs to be ran and broken in. I usually go through a number of heat/cool cycles before I take one on the road.

If both the clutch and the parking brakes were dragging, wouldn't that cause the symptoms this car is showing?

Kenny Edmondson wrote: ↑

Thu May 09, 2024 1:12 pm

I had a Ken Meeks engine years ago that he built for a club member. It was so tight that I had to stand on the crank handle to get it to turn over when setting the tiner. I was amazed when the starter turned it over when I actually went to start it.

If the engine is that tight, it needs to be ran and broken in. I usually go through a number of heat/cool cycles before I take one on the road.

My thoughts are that the last time the engine was apart was 1927.

Jack up both rear wheels and put the lever In the "neutral" position. See if either or both wheels have significant drag. If either or both shows significant drag, try moving the lever forward an inch or so from straight up and see if it reduces the drag.

Each rear brake has a lever on the backing plate and a brake rod running forward. With the lever in the straight up position, the rods should not have any tension on them and you should be able to move the pins in the rod clevis ends easily. If the brakes are dragging AND the clutch is dragging, the engine will be hard to crank even with the rear wheels off the ground.

Did you rule out a too tight low band yet?

Coincidentally, There is an equivalent T in our chapter that mirrors yours that has gotten real tight. The starter wont turn it over if the crank stops @ 90 degrees past TDC. The motor has not been apart since 1940.
It has been determined that the pistons are dragging. The next session will determine why.

Try this:
With the plugs out get the crank up before/near TDC & after. Note the drag. (pistons are moving very little) Rotate the crank 90 degrees. Note the drag. Much worse?? This is where our T gets real stiff. A little WD-40 improved the stiffness temporarily.

More to follow later in the week.

That's worth a try. Little-used engines may have carbon and rust behind the rings, or stuck rings, that may cause the pistons to get tighter in the bore as they near bottom center. In any case, removing the plugs and putting a mix of 20% acetone and 80% Marvel Mystery Oil in each cylinder and letting it soak overnight will do no harm. Do this will all pistons off of top center to assure that the mix pools on top of each piston. After soaking overnight, putting the car in high gear and rocking it back and forth enough to rotate the engine backward and forward just a little will also help. replacing the plugs after adding the MMO will prevent the acetone from evaporating.

Again, thanks for all of the replies. I'm very busy dealing with my wife's estate right at the moment. I have a major meeting with the lawyer Thursday and don't really have time to mess with the T until after we get things settled, so it will probably be next weekend before I have time for it. I'm going to check for drag on the low/high band first, if that doesn't solve the problem I'll take it from there.

Good plan.

If it is just "tight" through lack of use, and not locked up, you could just sling it on a rope and tow it around the block a couple of times. Use some penetrant in the bores, check progress after a little distance and repeat as necessary. I have had to resort to this once when a rebuilt motor had not been run for some years and needed to be "burnished" to free it up.

Allan from down under.

Message sent, I should be close on Saturday