What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

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Mark Osterman
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What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by Mark Osterman » Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:36 pm

Well, I installed the U&J carburetor in my runabout this afternoon. I made the mistake of not disconnecting the exhaust pipe. So, when I removed the Ford intake, the exhaust manifold was not completely off ... just hanged there making it difficult to clean the ports for reassembly. When I went to put on the aluminum U & J updraft manifold I dropped one of the copper/asbestos crush ring gaskets and it rolled to God knows where. Whoops. Spend a good long time looking for it.

So, I used a three-in-one copper clad gasket set I had hanging on the wall for years (have never used one before) and inserted the steel glands. Once the manifolds were in place and tightened I bolted on the U & J carburetor. Whoops ... turns out you need to install the throttle rod before installing the carburetor and making that rod was it’s own adventure. It was another hour of bending and testing, removing the carb, bending and testing and removing the carb. Eventually the rod to work good enough.

Hooked up the gas line (no leaks) and the choke rods (front and dash) and proceeded to get the engine going for the first t8me with this carburetor. I started out way too rich ... but got the car started. I laid under the car and adjusted the needle until is smoothed out, though there was an exhaust leak on one gasket. Then I went under the hood and set the idle. Tightened the nuts and still had a leak but took the car for a test drive around the block. I was amazed with the acceleration. Brought the car home and decided to call it a day.

I went out to take a picture of the installation after dinner tonight and I could smell gasolene as I approached the garage! When I opened the door there was gas everywhere. The carburetor was leaking like crazy. I shut off the gas tank petcock and poured kitty litter on the puddles. A very scary situation.

So, why is the carburetor leaking? I assume it’s a float issue. Oh, while in the garage tonight I found the missing crush gasket on the ground, and so tomorrow I’ll remove the manifolds and reinstall everything. Hope I can figure out what’s up with the carburetor. A stuck float or poor seating of the needle inlet valve? So close ... but not there yet.


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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by Mark Osterman » Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:39 pm

Here is the picture I took of the installation tonight. Thank goodness I went out there to take it.
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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by Susanne » Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:52 pm

Scary situation, for certain!!!

I had the same issue (quite a few years ago) with my Winfield Carb, turned out some time in its past someone had soldered a leak on the brass float, and every so often the solder "lump" would trip one of the 2 arms that ride on the float, so it would hold the needle valve open. The easy fix was to turn the float over, but it was so bad I put a second shutoff next to the carb just because... I remember my dad's '15 Roadster had a Zenith carb, same kind of situation, and it would arbitrarily start pouring for no reason... I think we figured out it was corrosion on the needle lever assembly keeping it from moving freely... but it was a pain as it was running on an old dizzy conversion, and had a propensity to backfire...

It only flamed once, but it scared EVERYONE when it happened...

It'll probably be a simple fix - just go thru everything and make sure everything is smooth as glass... and you'll (hopefully) be golden! (And put a backup shutoff in as well!!!)


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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by Mark Osterman » Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:53 am

Yes, I went through a checklist in my head and the float was high on the list. But this is the U&J that Stan Howe had just rebuilt a month ago. And when I gave the core to him it didn’t have a float so I’m assuming he would have used the new buoyant materials rather than the older hollow brass types.

I’m hoping it’s something like a bit of debris that got in there and found its way to the viton needle when I was installing the new gas line. Just went out this morning and am anxious to sweep up the gas sodden kitty litter.


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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by Tom Hicks » Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:29 am

Carburetors are certainly not in my bailiwick, but if Stan Howe rebuilt yours you can bet it is good.

I am going to guess trash from the tank or line. The easy fix is a fuel filter to prevent that from being a problem in the future. Lots of people have told me a fuel filter will not work on a Model T, but if they didn't work none of my T's would run. A filter will catch an occasional piece of trash from your tank getting to your carburetor. If you have enough trash coming through to block your filter you really need to clean your tank.

I put a fuel shut off solenoid on Ellie Mae because I usually park her in the garage under the house. It opens when I turn on the ignition. No problems so far, but it is still being tested.

The main problem with a fuel filer is that some Model T owners go into a tizzy when they see one, then you have to hear "Henry didn't need one", and get a lecture on how a properly installed system doesn't need one, and how they block up and the car won't run, and ethanol gas is the problem, etc. etc.

Common sense tells you that a carburetor needs clean gas to operate properly. A fuel filter is inexpensive and easy to install. And it can help prevent puddles of gasoline from developing on your garage floor.
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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by Mark Osterman » Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:48 am

The tank is fine, been driving this particular T for two years now with no previous problem. I did need to put in a new steel gas line because the geometry was different for this installation. So could be that. I did blow out the lins before installing.

When I put the new line in and hooked it up to the tank and carb there were no leaks. Also, the carburetor didn’t leak until I started the engine. Didn’t actually leak when running and I assume it’s because the gas was being used up quickly. From what I see this morning the leak appears about three minutes after shut down. So I’m thinking it has to be something stuck in the needle. I did give it a few raps with a small hammer and no change.

I’ll think about a filter and have no problem introducing modern improvements. But I’m sure this isn’t a gas tank problem. Ow an in-line shut off ... that is something I’ll add. Easier than getting under the car.

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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by RustyFords » Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:14 am

Glad you caught it Mark. My wife's cousin blew up his garage several years ago when his motorcycle leaked gas all over and the hot water heater came on.

Sure does sound like a needle/seat/float problem. I'd be putting my eyes on those if it were mine. Mystery trash will appear, even in a situation with a brand new carb and a tank that has never given problems in the past. If you just changed the fuel line, you jostled it around in ways that it's not used to, even with frequent driving.
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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by Mark Osterman » Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:36 am

Yes I’ll remove the carb today and shake it .. turn it upside down and blow air into the inlet snd see if that dislodges the stuck valve. Hate to actually take it apart as then I have to make fine gaskets. I will install an inline shut off as soon as I can find one.

In the mean time .... here is s picture I took this morning.
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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by Norman Kling » Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:48 am

That is unfortunate. I'm sure you will find out what is leaking.
That is also the reason to ALWAYS turn off the gas when you park the car! A leak can occur unexpectedly at any time and with gravity flow, it will just keep running until the tank is empty.
Norm

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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by RajoRacer » Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:54 am

I'm with Norman on this subject - a shut-off valve at the carb. is essential unless you're young & limber enough to keep climbing under the T to shut-off the "spud" lever !!!


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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by Mark Osterman » Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:45 pm

All fixed. I replaced the faulty three-in-one gaskets with individual crush rings and glands. See picture showing the leaks ... mostly due to the edge of head gasket preventing good contact. Emptied the carb through a coffee filter and did find some debris including a small fragment from the new gas line. I also turned the carb over several times snd shot compressed air in the gas inlet. Did a test with a temporary small gas tank from a lawn mower. Installed in the car and everything fine now.

Has better acceleration and idles ridiculously slow. I’m not getting much on the high end ... and the needle adjustment is very touchy I find.maybe I haven’t found the sweet spot.

In over three decades if driving a T .. have never had a carb leak like what happened last night. Have had float adjustment leaking and fixed that easily enough. Nevertheless I do plan to install an inline shut off on the gas line near the carb. Any favorites ?
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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by RajoRacer » Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:19 pm



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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Steve

I think they are in stock. I just got one in the mail Friday, so they were stocked at least last Monday or so.
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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by Mark Osterman » Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:00 pm

I’ve read old forum posts with mixed reviews on that type. Have you had good experience with them?


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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:05 pm

The item in the link is an EXCELLENT product. I will not use the cheaper valve any more, and have one more car in my barn that will get the "vintage style" valve. It is made from quality material, doesn't seem to wear appreciably, is easy to open/close, and SEALS.

I'd be ashamed of myself if this was one of my products as this is a shameless plug...but it is very nice and in my opinion, worth the price. To whoever is making it: Thank You.
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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by RajoRacer » Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:22 pm

The one linked above is excellent and is constructed with the same taper & seat that the original Ford crankcase & radiator drain cocks were made - it's the "less expensive" version that "Has Issues" !

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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by RajoRacer » Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:25 pm

Oh yea, I have one on 4 of the 5 T's in the stable - the Racer is a different breed !


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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by Les Schubert » Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:10 pm

All of the above is why I ensure that there are NO pilot lights or sources of ignition in my car shops. I use in floor hot water heat with a remote boiler.
I also try to religiously turn off the gas and run the carb out of gas. Not always practical but I certainly try to do it!!


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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by Mark Osterman » Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:37 pm

LOL ... well, my tiny garage was built in 1919 and is just big enough for my T. There is no heat but I do have a single 110 electric outlet. A few years ago I covered the floor with a plastic tarp to keep out the dampness from below.

Not sure I would shut off the gas and empty the carb every time I put it up for the evening. I drive the T to work nearly every day ... it would really be inconvenient. But I’ll install the in line shut off valve.

Drove the car most of the day and with my wife this evening to go to the Cinema ... and later for coffee at a sidewalk cafe in our neighborhood. Love the leisurely pace in high gear ... low rpms.

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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by NHUSA » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:58 pm

I always turn the gas off on our T and A when they are put away.

A few years ago I ran the T out of gas about a mile from home and called my wife to bring the lawnmower gas.
After I poured it in the tank I noticed a big gas puddle under the car.
The float had stuck. I jolted the carb with screwdriver handle, pushed the car about 10 feet away, started it and drove home.
I could see where the T left it’s mark on the road for about 18 months.
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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by DickC » Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:24 am

On every T I have or had, I use a shut off at the carb. However after several attempts to use the the more original type as referenced above I now use a "ball" type valve. I found that the brass compression type seemed to tighten to the point that I needed pliers to turn it. I talked to Langs and they offered an airplane lube that worked for a short while. While the mini shut off may not look original I went for the practical.


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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by HaroldRJr » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:11 pm

Hmm,....I was gonna' stay outa' this discussion, because I don't know if I can explain what I have in mind, without writing my usual, long-winded "epistle", but I'll try:

I know that the 90 deg. elbow type valve that Langs sells is a very, very well made product as Steve Tomaso suggested. I only have one problem with it, and that is the part that's hard to explain:

I like a gas line shut-off valve located in the gas line, somewhere near the carburetor, in other words, between the carburetor and firewall. As long as you're installing a shut-off valve in that area, in order to preclude having to crawl under the car to use the sediment bowl (potato) shut-off valve, why not have one conveniently located near the carburetor that when you shut if off, it allows you to then disconnect the gas line in order to remove the carburetor?

It would be nice if there could be some sort of "union" that you could break, between the good quality 90 deg. elbow shut-off valve and the carburetor, but there is not enough room to install such a union there, because the whole thing is almost touching the frame in most Model T's. This means that the only other way to have a shut-off valve under the hood, near the carburetor, that you can shut off in order to then disconnect the gas line to enable removal of the carburetor, is to have a shut-off valve located in the gas line just BEFORE a union that you can break to disconnect the gas line from the carburetor.

That leads me to suggest an inline shut-off valve such as a good quality ball valve located just a couple inches toward the firewall BEFORE the union & connection to the carburetor. I recall that Royce Peterson some time ago suggested a very good quality ball valve installed in the manner in which I have tried to describe.

Knew I have trouble explaining,....guess I could have just said:

All under the hood, a few inches from the carburetor, in this order, going from gas tank toward carburetor,....a ball valve type shut-off valve, then a union (maybe brass fittings or even inch or two of approve neoprene fuel hose) then the 90 deg. elbow connection to carburetor. Whew! Enough!

Anybody done something like this?


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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:46 pm

Harold

I hear you...
a ball valve is the way to go if you don't mind the modern look, or this, https://www.modeltford.com/item/2907.aspx if you're creative with fittings. One end is 1/8 MNPT and the other end fits the original style pack nut, https://www.modeltford.com/item/2907.aspx

I will be working one of these into my '23 as soon as the valve is available again (sometime this fall)
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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by Tom Hicks » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:02 am

Manual shut offs are good if you use them. If you tend to be forgetful, like me, a solenoid valve which closes when the ignition is shut off is the best way to go...
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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by Russ T Fender » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:53 am

While a shut off at the carburetor is a good idea and most convenient it is not ideal unless you also have a shut off that does not require the hood to be raised. If you have an engine fire, and that's most likely the place a fire will occur, you may not be able to get to the shut off. In addition, opening the hood may cause the fire to flare up whereas the hood when closed tends to contain the fire a bit. The early cars don't have a shut off at the tank and even with a shut off at the tank there is still a lot of fuel in the line to feed a fire so I try to place a shut off at the carburetor for everyday use and an emergency one as close to the carburetor as possible but not under the hood.


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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:38 am

Val

I know these cars pretty well back to '12...but not earlier, so I respect your knowledge on the subject...however, is this not the cutoff that attaches to the sediment bowl on early cars? Or is this someones clever adaptation of a custom valve to the old sediment bowl?

I'd sure like to know as I'm putting a tank into an '11 Torpedo tomorrow and want things "correct" as well as safe. Thank you

https://www.modeltford.com/item/2907.aspx
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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by RajoRacer » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:28 am

"Early" cars did in fact have a gas shut-off - how would you suppose that when carburetor work was necessary, did one have to drain the gas tank ????

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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by RajoRacer » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:30 am

I've done extensive work on a 1909 & I have a '10 coming in next week which will require carburetor removal - they have fuel shut-offs.


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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:35 pm

Thank you Steve
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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by StanHowe » Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:24 pm

I got an email about this thread so I read it and here is my response.

I make the needle and seat set for the U & J as there is no replacement for them. The machined seat is pressed and soldered in to the original seat which then screws into the boss in the body of the carb. It is then fitted with a Viton tipped needle the same as I use in 90% of my restoration work. I use the original float hinge and pin and a Holley G float turned down to size. I also turn the body of the U & J down to accept a Holley G bowl including shortening the stem about 1/8 of an inch as there are virtually no usable U & J bowls. I use a gasoline/ethanol impervious O ring to seal the bowl to the body and a Holly G sized upper bowl/body gasket. The G bowl retains the original drain plug, which the U & J did not have originally. I replace most of the original drains with either a new one I source from Langs or install an adapter to 1/8 pipe and then use an internal seal drain I source from McMaster Carr.

I also turn down the stem on most of them and thread it to a standard size as the original U & J carbs were built on a proprietary thread system and there is no place I have found that has a die for those threads. I use a Holley G size nut that I make by the handful on my lathes.

There was no way to drain the original bowl. It was intended that you would remove it and "wipe it out." It is a 30 second deal to remove the bowl, another 30 seconds to pull the pin and check if there is anything in the needle/seat that is holding it open.

I have not had any problems with this setup in the 50 or so U & J's I have running and all are leak tested on the bench -- usually overnight -- before shipping. Some, depending on time and other circumstances, I also test run and adjust.

This is not to say there is no possibility of problem with this system, but 99% of the time it is caused by crap in the fuel line washing it's way into the carburetor/needle/seat. No gravity feed carburetor should be installed on any engine with out a good quality filter just prior to the carburetor and a shutoff near it. A cat hair will hold open the best needle and seat system in the world. There is not and can not be much pressure on the needle.

NO TAPE, NO GOOP OF ANY KIND ON ANY THREADS!!!! Brass fittings are designed to seal without goop or crap on the threads. Most of what I see that is causing problems is crap on the threads that has washed into the seat and is causing the needle to stick or pieces of the yellow teflon tape somebody wrapped around the threads when they installed it.

My advice would be to remove the carburetor, turn it upside down, remove the bowl, pull the pin and with a white paper towel over the inlet, blow CLEAN air back through the seat to see if there is anything in there.

It is always possible there is a problem with the seat, the needle or the float, the seal of the bowl to the body (although I straighten them while the mating area is red hot on a dedicated fixture in my lathe. I have not had a problem with them leaking but it is always possible. (Since the steel bowls and very good quality steel I quite often don't powder coat them, I blue them with an acetylene torch which is a look I really like)

As I said, remove the carburetor and take the nut off the bottom, remove the bowl, the pin and the float, then pull the needle and inspect and clean it. If there is goop from some thread sealer, you will have to replace the needle and possibly the seat as there is no way to effectively remove it to where it will not cause problems. It is also possible that there is damage to the tip. The needle/seat set I make that a taper in the seat that the tapered needle tip fits into but there is always a possibility that there is damage.

Incidentally, I'm in the shop working on two U & J's today. I just finished a Stromberg O-2 after spending over a week working on a Packard carburetor for a 1918 Packard truck. One of half a dozen of those carbs known to exist in the world. This one laid in the mud for probably 50 years so most of the metal parts were rusted away the brass survived.

I wanted to go to the Model T tour this week but business first.

Back to the shop, back to the shop, back to the shop.


StanHowe
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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by StanHowe » Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:27 pm

The worst cars for fire are the mid 20's with vacuum tanks. That puts a pint of gas pretty much right above the flames with a direct line to the fire. They burned up a lot of Franklins and Studebakers with those "Fumers" that caught the carb on fire and also the pot metal carburetor that will suddenly fair have burned up a bunch in recent years.


Tom Hicks
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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by Tom Hicks » Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:10 pm

StanHowe wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:24 pm

No gravity feed carburetor should be installed on any engine with out a good quality filter just prior to the carburetor and a shutoff near it.
Words of wisdom from an expert.
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Mark Osterman
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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by Mark Osterman » Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:38 pm

Just so we are on the same page ... and just in case Stan and others didn’t read my followup post a week ago. Everything is fine. As I suspected it was some debris. I removed the carb, turned it upside down and right side up a few times, back washed it with gas and blew in some air. No problems with leaking and after I zeroed in the bottom needle adjustment I am driving regularly with this carb and love it. Best driving carburetor I’ve owned so far.

I ordered a right angle shut off from Langs but hadn’t thought about a filter. If Stan says it’s advisable I will install one. I thought this had been hashed out in previous posts that in line filters on the gravity feed wasn’t advisable. But I’ll trust in the new conventional wisdom and puck one up to install when I receive the shut off.


Rich Bingham
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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by Rich Bingham » Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:55 pm

I've noticed that opinions on modifications and methods are more often than not diametrically opposed, either side offering substantial quantities of logic, experience and passion to support their positions. I'd be inclined to listen to Stan Howe. In the end, one's choices depend on advice my grand-dad once gave me, "Use your own judgment son . . . as poor as it is." :lol:
"Get a horse !"


Tom Hicks
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Re: What a mess ... my garage with puddles of gas

Post by Tom Hicks » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:52 pm

I use these, but I would take Mr. Howes advice if suggests another type.

https://www.summitracing.com/search/bra ... w=SKU&ar=1
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