MTFCA Forum

I spent last week on the MTFCI National tour in Cadillac, MI. On our tour to the lake Michigan shoreline community of Manistee I got a flat tire, the first one in over 10,000 miles of driving my 1917 Touring. The tires were Universal T Drivers, which had been on the car for the 10,000 + miles. I posted a photo and narrative on a local Michigan Model T FB site thinking those who knew me would get a chuckle out of my situation. It went viral, and at last count had over 345,000 views, mostly from outside the Model T community. Needless to say, I was surprised by the interest.

What you might find interesting is what happened at the tire shop. I'm fortunate that my local tire shop actually enjoys working on Model T tires and does a good job. They removed a small nail and patched the tube. They wanted to know where I got the tube (I use Blockleys), and they said they had never seen a better tube - both because of the quality of the rubber and the fact that the rubber is thicker than most tubes. When choosing to install Blockleys, I weighed a Hartford and Blockley and found the Blockley weighed 1.4 pounds more. I decided such information was worth sharing.

Good to know. I will need some new tires for my 26. They are the same size as the early Model A's so are easier to get.
Norm

I found Hartford 30 x 3½ rubber stem tubes at $21.50 each quite satisfactory and less than half the price of Blockley tubes at $45.15. Removing the rubber stems and installing my own metal stems cost me $86 for a set of four tubes versus $180 for a set of Blockleys. My meager budget said Good Enough versus The Best was good enough. By all accounts Blockley tubes are far superior, so I may eventually go that route.

When I ordered the latest set of Blockley tyres, the dealer was out of stock of Blockley tubes. He supplied Michelin equivalents for the same price. These have screw-on threaded brass stems, so most of us would be really happy with that. These too are really thick. The nearest I have seen to them are some early red rubber Goodyears I salvaged from some old rim/tyre purchases made a few years ago.

Allan from down under.

Wow nice of them to work on it. I haven't found anyone near me that will touch anything mounted to a wood wheel.

Tire tail

Thanks for the info on the Blockly tubes. I bought a set of 4 tires & tubes from them to install on the '23 Runabout when the current Firestones have had it. The previous owner on my '14 installed new Wards Riversides with new rubber stemmed tubes. They leak. I have been kicking around the idea of replacing those tubes with Blockleys.Its great to hear the endorsement from your tire buster.

Paul

Yes, that's a great suggestion. In this case, the whole rubber stem looks to be broken where it joins the tube. The air hisses out more or less if the stem is bent this way or that. It hardly matters anyway as the whole wheel & tire assembly will soon be a wall hanger.

Paul

Hudson29 wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 24, 2024 12:41 pm

Yes, that's a great suggestion. In this case, the whole rubber stem looks to be broken where it joins the tube. The air hisses out more or less if the stem is bent this way or that. It hardly matters anyway as the whole wheel & tire assembly will soon be a wall hanger.

Paul

Thats exactly the candidate for a schrader replacement stem.

Regardless of the route you go, my experience is that rubber stemmed tubes are a poor choice with clincher tires. I tried rubber stemmed tubes first and had two flat tires in my garage. In each case, I found that the stem had been cut on the side, by the bead of the tire (photo 1). I learned that "back in the day" it was common to grind out part of the bead to prevent such rubbing (photo 2). Since going with brass stems - no problems whatsoever.

...my experience is that rubber stemmed tubes are a poor choice with clincher tires.

I buy them for the lower price, then take off the rubber stems and replace them with my own metal stems. So far that works for me. I've never had to notch a tire.


https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG110.html

There is even less need to notch a tyre theses days as the beads are narrower than they were in the past. If you do the maths and measure the bead and the rim width, the valve stem is well clear of the bead edges, until the tyre is underinflated and moves about on the rim. Most times notching is done to aid fitting the tube when the tyre fitting technique in use sees one side of the tyre mounted first. When tyring to insert the valve stem down the hole, the tyre is pulled outwards, at the same time as the already mounted side is pulled over the valve stem hole! If the tube is fitted in the tyre, the valve stem and both beads are fitted in the rim at the same time, and both beds levered on together, there is no need to notch the bead.

Allan from down under.

I keep my tires inflated between 60 & 65 psi --- I pump them up to 65 but over time I've seen them lose a couple of psi. I check them several times a season. I understand your comments about not needing a notch but i could find no other explanation for cuts on the sides of the stem. There was no evidence that the tire had ever moved on the rim which would have damaged the back of the stem.

Whatever the reason, I'm a 100% brass-stem guy now!

Some folks are sticklers for originality and will use only #777 stems. Because so many dust covers, including repops, are larger I go with #724 or #725.

Most (all?) reproduction covers fit the #724 and #725 stems used on today's metal stem tubes.

Original #724-#725 dust cover.

I recently met with a new first time T owner, he had 2 flat clincher tires. One tire and tube had shifted and his stem was at an angle and had been cut by the rim. The other tire had spun so much that the stem was not visible and I could just see the tire flap thru the rim stem hole.

Humblej wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 25, 2024 2:05 pm

I recently met with a new first time T owner, he had 2 flat clincher tires. One tire and tube had shifted and his stem was at an angle and had been cut by the rim. The other tire had spun so much that the stem was not visible and I could just see the tire flap thru the rim stem hole.

Newbies are most prone to there failures. They dont know clinchers need 60# tire pressure.

They don't know clinchers need 60# tire pressure.

That's important. It can save you money. I run 65 in front and 70 rear. But I had an iffy front tire and neglected to check the pressure. I was rounding a corner on a county road in the next county east when I suddenly heard a rim running on gravel. I searched both sides of the road multiple times and never did find that tire. It may still be hiding there.

I have universal T drivers on my 14. I installed them 20 years ago on a set of Buffalo wire wheels. I used rim liners and tire flaps. I also used rubber stem tubes. No issues to report. I also run them at 65 lbs.

It was a well known fact back in the "olden days" 1960s. that Wards Riversides needed to be notched, other wise you'd loose a valve stem. I lost a few before I got the message.
Ed aka #4

YellowTRacer wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 25, 2024 4:21 pm

It was a well known fact back in the "olden days" 1960s. that Wards Riversides needed to be notched, other wise you'd loose a valve stem. I lost a few before I got the message.
Ed aka #4

Notching was the standard procedure until the newer clinchers removed the overlap material.
The tube was completely encased in tire. Now there is such a gap that flaps or some other protection is needed against the rim.

Tim, I just had another look at your photo of the damaged valve stem and noticed it is marked TR13. In my experience that sized stem is often too large for the hole in the model T rim, and the valve stem cannot fit all the way through the hole. These days the TR13 stem is the only one available in a stick -on form. To make them fit I have to thin the rubber down a bit on a sanding drum so they will go through the rim hole.I have sometimes made the hole in the rim a little larger to accommodate the TR13 stem. Your wear groove may be a result of the larger stem not fitting right through the rim hole.

Is your leak at the worn groove round the stem, or at the perished part right at the base of the stem?

Allan from down under.

Just ran into the rubber stem size issue yesterday demounting some old T Drivers - had a bugger of a time with the one Hayes rim getting the r.s. tube stem out of a too small hole. These are older USA made thick tubes that the owner wanted to use over. It seems Hayes had two similar rims w/extended lugs going into the rim - one has a longer straight sided lug, the other is shorter sided - the short sided lug rim has a bit of an upset where the stem comes through & I drilled it out with a 27/64" bit - went back together waaay better ! The other rim had a nice round hole - I have another loose one of that style & will verify the stem hole.

Alan - that stem was on a Hartford tube. The photo doesn't show it but there is an actual separation between the base of the stem and the body of the tube. i did enlarge the holes in the rim slightly and carefully dressed them with a file to remove sharp edges before the stems were damaged.

I checked the valve stem number and the modern equivalent to fit a standard T rim is TR 35, which is slimmer than the TR 13.

Allan from down under.

I guess the lesson to be learned from this is fit the valve stem to the hole to check before mounting the tyre. Tim, your rubber valve stem has suffered at some time. It takes a deal of pressure to kink it half way up as your is.

Allan from down under.

It seems Hayes had two similar rims w/extended lugs going into the rim - one has a longer straight sided lug, the other is shorter sided...

About 1923 rims from Hayes, Ford, and Kelsey were standardized to make them interchangeable. I suspect this is the reason for the varying details of Hayes rims.

They did not interchange universally in my experience with our Canadian sourced cars. Most of our cars had Kelsey loose lug wheels. Rims with lugs were finally introduced in 1925 models. Keksey wheels do not have a relief pressed in the outer rolled in edge of the felloe to accommodate the foot on the Hayes lugs. Other fixed lug rims do fit our Kelsey wheels, and there are a couple of different types I have seen. These same rims do fit on Hayes felloes on my wire wheels. So I have found interchangeability can be a two way street, or a one way street.

It would be interesting to know of the experience of US T owners who have earlier loose lug wheels and how different rims can fit.

Allan from down under.

Relieving the bead to accept the tube stem is a old time tire trick.. Its a bit of an effort to get it just right by using a knife. So I found taking the tire and putting it in to a vice where you want to notch the bead and squeezing the bead just tight enough to keep both beads together. Then I use an appropriate size hole saw in a drill motor with variable speed. I slowly cut the notch equal on both beads. Once done when you take the tire out of the vice you have a perfect 1/2 hole on each bead.

Been doing this for over 50 years and never had an issue.

just saying,

brasscarguy