MTFCA Forum

I have been working to get my '14 Touring ready for a car show in a neighboring town something like 30 miles away. A lot of work has been done on the car until I was pulled away from the project by medical issues 2.5 years ago and then just never got back to it. Now its time to put it back on the front burner and so it went out for a drive on July 5th to see where the project is and what needs to be done.

More work was done and another test drive was scheduled for this past Sunday. I got the car completely ready to go but it would not fire. The battery spins the '18 motor over well enough but it didn't fire at all, not even a pop. I will need an assistant to operate the starter switch while I watch one of the spark plugs so that will have to wait for that assistant.

One of the prep items was to pour a cooling system de-rust/cleaner into the radiator. Now it sitting in the top tank waiting for the motor to warm enough to start the thermo-syphon process. I really want this stuff in the motor rather than the radiator and am curious if I can hot wire the ignition to provide the necessary spark and run the motor.

I'm no electrical whiz but with the very nice new harnesses provided by the suppliers and the handy dandy little electrical book put out by the club, was able to completely rewire my '23 Runabout. I even took the switch apart and cleaned the contacts up and installed a plastic wood kit from Fun Projects. It has given 20+ years of reliable service since.

This '14 is not so simple. Someone installed a later engine with a generator & starter and electrified the gas lights. There is no wiring diagram that would seem to apply so it is hard to figure out what does what. To make matters worse, the switch is buried in the front of the coil box so it can't be easily jumped even if I knew which terminals need jumping.

I have another plastic wood kit that I want to install along with new plugs & ignition wires but that will be for a few weeks from now. My schedule is currently booked solid.

So - is it possible to jump something under the hood easily so I can get the motor warm enough to circulate the flush?

I should probably mention that the previous own installed an E-Timer which suits me down to the ground. The E-Timer has given me good service in the '23.

Paul

Is the push-pull switch for your head lamps or your ignition ? Whatever you do, don't jump the battery to your magneto terminal.

That's a standard '14 switch on the front of the coilbox.

There's a good power test. Hook up your battery as you normally had it.
If you turn on the headlights & they work, you have battery power to the coils.
Do you think your ignition switch has failed since running last time?
Move the switch to battery & hand crank. You should hear the coil buzz when the timer brush/roller contacts.

M is where the wire from the magneto attaches.
B is the terminal fed by the wire from the battery. You also see a wire from there to the headlight switch (left side of the picture). At the top, almost hidden by the hood former is where the timer wires are attached. The timer is a switch that fires each of the coils in 1, 2, 4, 3 order.

Of course, if your switch has been "remodeled" all bets are off. Now that I've confused everyone, I hope something I'v'e posted will be of some use.

Move the ignition switch back and forth several times but you might have already done that. It’s probably something fairly simple. Cleaning the timer is another basic test. As far as figuring out how it’s wired using a later diagram with a generator and starter should get you going on the right track.
Your 14 has the same firing order as any other T and the coils are in the same location diagram wise as the later models or it should be. Is the battery grounded to frame pretty well? How about the foot switch. That could be another possibility.
But I’ll bet it’s the ignition switch but that depends if it’s been monkeyed with internally. How the headlights are wired may make things seemingly confusing. I wouldn’t worry about that but only getting the coils to fire and getting it running. The headlights would come later.

He's running an E-Timer folks - no cleaning & I'm not sure it will "buzz" the coils ????????

FWIW, the E-Timer does not use the magneto.
You should be able to put power to the battery post on the coil box, then ground out the top set of wires, to see if your coils buzz.

Hudson29 wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 23, 2024 1:52 pm

I will need an assistant to operate the starter switch while I watch one of the spark plugs so that will have to wait for that assistant.

Take a spare spark plug, lay it on the head with one of the spark plug wires attached to it but positioned so you can see it while you are pushing the starter button look for the spark.

Fire_chief wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 23, 2024 4:07 pm

FWIW, the E-Timer does not use the magneto.
You should be able to put power to the battery post on the coil box, then ground out the top set of wires, to see if your coils buzz.

Good point here.
Ground each of the top timer wire connections with a plug(s) laying on the head.
No need for a helper. No need to turn the crank.

On my 27, there is a post on the bottom of the coil box that receives the hot power from the switch. I'm not at that point in my reassembly, so I run a bypass wire with a toggle switch on it direct from my positing battery post to this hot terminal post on the coil box. I turn my toggle switch on and can start and run the engine and then turn the toggle switch off to kill the engine.
Don't know if the OP's coil box has a similar post.

Yes, the push-pull switch is for the lights and they do still work, I just went into the shop & tried them. I also tried extensive jiggling & switch movements from MAG to BAT & back. With the E-Timer, the motor starts & runs on BAT. I'm not sure why the previous owner installed the E-Timer, possibly the mag wasn't up to snuff.

Signsup has the sort of setup I'm hoping to find on his '27. Is there a way to do that on this older T?

Paul

Anything is possible, but the coil box switch is not easily hot wired/bypassed as a T with the terminal block on the firewall without removing the cover to access the wires. (see pictures)
But why would you want to? What you have works & is not as prone to failure as dash mounted switches.
The E timer is supposed to be the cats meow. Might contact our friend Gene Carothers.

With an E timer fitted, the coils do not buzz. For those who missed the buzzing coils, the I timer was a later development.

Allan from down under.

Troubleshooting Model T ignition issues with E-Timer Electronic Ignition installed is not the same as Troubleshooting a stock Model T ignition.

Do NOT "HOT WIRE" timer wires to ground to see if coils will Buzz!
Doing so will instantly BLOW the fuse jumpers installed across the coil points requiring removal and replacement fuse jumpers.

Here are a few troubleshooting suggestions:
With the car setup for normal engine starting (ie spark lever fully retarded, transmission in neutral, ignition power on set to battery, etc.) Slowly hand crank the engine and listen for coil point buzz while turning the crank 2 full revolutions. Each coil should buzz once after 2 crank shaft revolutions. Use caution when hand cranking engine because the engine may start even if it does not start using the starter motor.

1. If no coil buzz is heard while hand cranking the engine, check positive battery power (+6 to +12V) is present at each timer terminal using a DC voltmeter with respect to frame ground. (Be careful not to short the timer terminal to ground with the voltmeter probe or you may blow the fuse jumpers! ) If no battery power is present at any timer terminal, check battery power is present at the coil box battery terminal. If so, trouble shoot coil box power distribution. If not, trouble shoot why power is not getting to the coil box; the ignition switch is a common candidate vulnerable to contact failure. If this is the first time the car is being fitted with an E-Timer and battery power is present at the timer terminals, verify the E-Timer housing is making metal to metal contact with the mating surface on the timing cover. Newly rebuilt engines may have a fully painted timing cover that prevents the E-Timer housing from contacting engine ground. If so, remove the paint on the timing cover where it contacts the E-Timer.

2. If no coil buzz is heard during hand cranking 2 revolutions and battery power IS present at the timer terminals. The E-Timer internal fuse may be blown and will need to be returned for repair. Known causes of internal fuse blowing:
a. Metal coil box lid removed or replaced while ignition powered or operating, shorting coil points together or to ground while powered.
b. Improper routing of spark plug wires. Its good practice to route spark plug wires to remain a minimum 1" clearance from ANY other
objects between the spark plug and coil box terminal. Old, worn, dried out or cracked spark plug wire insulation can allow spark to jump to
adjacent objects such as other spark plug wires or timer wires which can damage the E-Timer. This is especially true for sharp edges of the
spark plug wire terminals. Your #2 spark plug wire looks like its sitting on or close to spark plug #3 in your first photo!

3. If each coil is verified to buzz once when slowly hand cranking the engine 2 revolutions but engine still will not start when electric starter engaged. The problem may be low voltage during electric starter cranking due to the heavy current draw by the starter motor. The engine may crank and crank and crank without a putt or without starting but does start immediately upon release of the starter switch. This is a sure sign low battery voltage during starter motor starting. Known causes of low battery voltage during starter motor cranking.
a. Weak or bad battery. Test the battery using a load tester after fully charging the battery. Replace if the battery is weak or bad. Battery
lifetime is typically 5 years or less.
b. Loose or corroded battery terminals, Starter switch terminals, starter switch contacts. Clean and tighten all battery power connections.
c. Check if battery terminals or connections get hot after starter cranking. Heat is a indicates power dissipation and subsequent voltage drop
d. Check battery ground strap is rated for battery voltage in use; 6V battery must supply twice the current compared with 12V battery to supply
the same starter power. A 12V battery ground strap installed with a 6V battery may drop too much voltage during starter cranking. The
battery ground strap should Not get warm or hot after cranking. If so, replace the ground strap with a 6V rated ground strap with good
electrical contact to the frame.

Hope these suggestions help.

High voltage spark can jump between spark plug wires or from spark plug wires to other wires or objects IF the spark plug wires have old, worn or dried out or cracked insulation and should be replaced. It is good practice to route spark plug wires to maintain a minimum 1" clearance from any other object or wiring to reduce the chance spark energy is diverted from the any unintended place. This is especially true for any sharp edges of spark plug wire terminals as they are more likely to promote arcing to other objects or wires.

Note that errant spark plug wire arcing to unintended paths can damage the E-Timer, if one is installed, but also results in annoying engine misfire and loss of engine power because spark is diverted to the path of least resistance rather than the spark plug as intended.

Here are three places to check circled in red that appear less than 1" clearance between spark plug wires or terminals and other objects or wiring.

Thanks to everyone for the ideas here. Steve & Mike your pictures were helpful.

It sounds like hot wiring this Model T is not possible so I'll have to find a different way forward. The car was running happily when parked just a few weeks ago. The ignition has always been reliable in the past except for one time when it died on the road and coasted to a stop. Mysteriously, it restarted a few minutes later after I poked & prodded various items under the hood.

I do have a spare E-Timer if I have figured out a way to blow mine up but this seems unlikely as nothing in the ignition had been messed with since it last ran.

I will go though Mike's checklist and see what I can discover.

Paul

Thanks Steve, I too wish for some friendly help in these sorts of situations. Like many of us who have moved to rural locations from big cities I was well aware of the compromises such a move entails. I miss the warm embrace of the Orange County Model T Club very much. The meetings & tours were always fun and the great folks there even made breakdowns a fun experience. Whenever someone had trouble, the whole tour would stop and the mechanically minded would gather around and figure out what was wrong and try to set it right. As long as this didn't happen too often it was educational and enjoyable. Frequently a work party would form to help a member get an old T back on the road. It was great & I miss that.

On the other hand, I can actually drive my Model T here, more than just stop light to stop light. Its possible to put it in gear and roll for hours with few or even no stops and the scenery is grand. No one is worried by Model T speeds as the common farm equipment is even slower. Its a paradise for old car lovers. I'm sure you know all of this as you have often posted about it.

Reading through Mike's checklist, I see I have already messed up. I remember riding with a friend in his 1919 pickup which frequently had ignition problems. He would run with the coil box lid off & jiggle the coils or even shim them with matchbook covers while the engine was running to try to get it to fire on all cylinders. I tried something similar. With the key ON I removed the lid and got some sparks. Now reading what Mike posted I can see that was exactly the wrong thing to do. Whatever the initial malady might have been, I may have just earned to E-Timer issues on top of them. Drat!

Paul