MTFCA Forum

So, going thru all of Daisy Mae's components, working my way thru the front end. The findings:
* The wishbone is shot (earlier post)
* The DB axle has some minor play in the kingpin holes. There was enough slop in the spindle which could be felt/seen when grabbing the wheel top/bottom, but the spindle bushings showed no wear, but where you could see the play in the KP bolt within the axle. While it's relatively minor (my 26 TT was WAY worse), Dan has graciously offered to shim the axle...at least I'll never have to worry about that issue again.
* the spring mount/spring/tie rod bushings and shackles all appeared to be tight/in good condition/minor wear. I got confirmation that the front end bushings were replaced in the 60's.
The frame cross member appears to be in good shape. No obvious bends, rivets tight, no cracks, no major corrosion, and the spring bolt receiver is still square, not worn/cracked/wallered out.
Bottom line though, as with most everything else I've encountered, for being 110 yrs old, Daisy is in surprisingly great shape!

But, I have two questions, seeking opinions (c'mon, yall are full of 'em!) LOL
See next posts....

Check the steering shaft bushing in the lower frame mount. Often overlooked when tightening up a front end.
Have someone wiggle the steering wheel back & forth whall you watch the steering shaft @ the pit-man arm.

You may have already done this.
Jack up the front end and place two jack stands on each side under the frame. Doing that will completely get the car up and then you can turn the steering wheel back and forth. You will begin to see where the slack is in the steering column and the rest of the front end.

Spring:

The top spring, where it mounts/sandwiches up with the spring pad & frame generally traps enough dirt/moisture to rust/pit the top spring. Daisy's still pristine enough to see manufacturer & date marks. Anyone know what the "A" references? There also appears to be other markings next to the A, but more like hand imprinted vs stamp. While she is an early '14, the spring pack itself was built July 1913.
My question for the spring pack.

As prelude, for me, Daisy represents a very interesting example with unique known backstory, in great as found original condition having been in storage since 1930. My goal is not to do a full on restoration, but to go thru her, document, and address any needed maintenance, repair or safety issues...but basically keep her in as found condition. At times I have to stop and catch myself from going too far.

One thought was to repaint the springs with graphite paint...eg...take the spring pack apart and clean/paint each individual leaf. But, it's a curled leaf with riveted retainers.
I'd have to pop the rivet to do so...which...I don't want to do destroying original condition and replace with a bolt.


Choices being:
* remove the spring bolt to loosen the springs, check for cracked leaves, clean & paint as best I can between the separated leaves
Or,
*remove the rivets...and the original condition. ( I'm not set up to re-rivet). Given that this will not be a trailer queen restoration, but an as found restoration, does the bolt vs rivet matter?

What would you choose Given this scenario, or am I just over thinking...

Option 2 if you are not going to rerivet. I didnt think reriveting was that hard on my projects. Buy the right size round head rivet, cut to length, put in place and form the head using a bucking bar, heat and a rather small ball peen hammer.

John kuehn wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 09, 2024 2:41 pm

You may have already done this.
Jack up the front end and place two jack stands on each side under the frame. Doing that will completely get the car up and then you can turn the steering wheel back and forth. You will begin to see where the slack is in the steering column and the rest of the front end.

Yes John, I did that prior to the teardown.
My prior experience reference point was my 26 TT, which had a heavily worn front end...everywhere.
The triple gears were well worn, the steering shaft mount was shot & replaced, everything so worn it was sloppy with lots of play, taking a good 4 inches in the steering wheel to affect any movement.

In comparison, Daisy was tight. Virtually no play in the wheel, less than half an inch play off center each direction. Holding one wheel or component taught (suspended), neither was there play felt/seen anywhere.

The pitman arm ball is good.
The only component that shows wear in the linkage is the drag link ball on the tie rod, which had been shimmed, but neither significantly out of round. The system did have after market ball tensioners.

Preservation first.
Dont mess with the rivet unless you could reset EXACTLY as it is now.

Question 2:

Daisy has after market spring shocks.
I know of the arguments against these. But yet:
1) they are part of the cars very backstory, being installed for the purpose of her cross country trek, and,
2) they are unique in the sense that they are of unknown manufacturer, while similar in appearance to others, they are different enough where have found no other reference, picture, ad.



They are in pretty decent shape, but, still present some minor issues.

The spring perch bolt itself is not significantly worn one side to the other, but the arm itself is slightly ovaled out. The spring perch was drilled out to enable oiling. That would have to remain if I kept the shocks on the car, but I would fill if I removed them.

The shackle mount has a bushing that is locked in between two riveted plates. There is no provision for oiling other than via correct shackles oiled internally (where I am replacing the current shackles for period correct). The sleeve bearing itself is worn enough to where the load is carried across the plates on the ends of the shackles.
Question being.... even with the (seemingly minor) wear in the shocks mounts, given that this will only be an occasional driver, not a long distance tour runner, and given it's place in the history of the car, and uniqueness of unknown origin,....

Would you reinstall, or remove and just keep for display?

My 14 came with quite a few accessories. I believe she has the same shocks as you show. I left them on. I see no harm if everything is tight.
In your case, the spring shackles are much later, that & the wear, I would replace them with the correct style figure 8's* & brass oilers.

speedytinc wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 09, 2024 4:16 pm

My 14 came with quite a few accessories. I believe she has the same shocks as you show. I left them on. I see no harm if everything is tight.
In your case, the spring shackles are much later, that & the wear, I would replace them with the correct style figure 8's* & brass oilers.

Yes, period correct shackles w/brass oilers will be installed on the rebuild.

While these shocks appear to be similar in appearance to others, they are slightly different.
I have only been able to identify 3 manufacturers of dual arm/spring shocks.... W&C, H&D, and Flex-o-plane. All the above have a continuous curve in their arms....but where mine are straight.

I have two sets of this type of shock absorber on my cars. They are English made by Richards Wilcox, and were part of a suite of accessories offered by Duncan and Fraser, Ford distributors for South Australia. Yours I feel are cheaper fabricated steel item rather than maleable castings.

On mine the shackle runs directly in the cast arm, steel on cast iron, but at least they were drilled to accept an oiler. Most are neglected, often too worn to accept a bronze bushing. I was able to piece together a better set for my roadster, and have fitted bronze bushes in them. The other wear point is the outboard end of the yoke assembly pivots. They wear just as yours have. The ones I have have a hexagonal relief in the cast arms in which the pivot bolt head fits, making the pivot bolt fixed in the yoke. They are supposed to move only in the spring perch eye, but like yours, they can move in the arms and flog that point out too.

Despite these frailties, they do work very well, especially on undulating surfaces.

Allan from down under.

Hey Allen
Yes, mine are the same way, I was remiss in noting that in my post. One side of the shock arm and bolt are slotted to lock the spring perch mount bolt in place on the shock. The rounded out shock arm hole is not born of rotational wear, but simple lateral tension on the system wearing the stamped steel.

The shocks are entirely stamped steel. For the now worthless shackle bushing I imagine I can just drill out and refit a new steel bushing in the assembly.

I'm thinking these must have been a cheap JC Shitney type clone product in the day. But, even so, surprisingly decent shape all things considered.

Kurt, I'd go bigger, with a sleeve welded in, big enough to take a bronze bush.

Allan from down under.

Allan wrote: ↑

Sun Aug 11, 2024 4:02 am

Kurt, I'd go bigger, with a sleeve welded in, big enough to take a bronze bush.

Allan from down under.

Even better...thanks for the suggestion!

I've decided to keep the shocks on the car out of respect to their part of her history, given the basis of my goal is to "restore" her in as found condition.

But for the interim the suspension will be returned to stock so I can spend some time restoring/repairing/improving the shock components.

Kurt, you will need to remove the spring perches from the axle and swap them from side to side if you are going to revert to standard configuration for a while. That can be a difficult proposition if they are stubborn.

Allan from down under.

I would pressure wash the spring, then oil it. If you drive the car much and keep the various parts oiled as Ford recommended, it's going to collect dirt regardless. Adding powdered graphite to the oil will help keep the spring flexible with less oil. The graphite will soil wheels if it drips on them.

Allan wrote: ↑

Sun Aug 11, 2024 10:02 pm

Kurt, you will need to remove the spring perches from the axle and swap them from side to side if you are going to revert to standard configuration for a while. That can be a difficult proposition if they are stubborn.

Allan from down under.

Yup, caster.... and yup, stubborn...been there.
Everything is apart and in process of being cleaned up.
I was surprised over the perches. My 26 wouldn't budge regardless of method and I ended up destroying and buying new. Given difficulty of replacing these unobtanium early perches, I was just patient...soaking in penetrating oil, hitting the axle with a torch, and just repeating a few times over several days. My 26 I doubled up nuts on my press, and still destroyed it. I decided to try Lang's perch tool, and, have to say money well spent.... after a few days of soak/heat, it only took a few pulls before they 'POP'd to the end of the tool....removed the tool, twisted the perch in the axle, hit with more oil, back in the press, and no more resistance and out!! Success!! I was happy!!!!! And relieved....

Dan is going to shim up the axle for me, and also had a good wishbone, so, Daisy will be set up again soon.

I haven't touched the rear axle yet, but removing/rebuilding the rear shocks will require getting some stock rear perches...the shock system replaced the rear perches, while using/reversing the fronts. In the pic you can see the flat perch style. This part also has some cast markings, only part of the shocks with any kind of marking... still can't make them out though. But, while not yet investigated, one side is disconcerting, reviewing the pics I take of everything, I don't know yet if it's a scratch, casting indent, or a really bad crack seen left of the bolt head.
Once off, if cracked, I'll just scrap the entire shock system and keep as display pieces...