MTFCA Forum

Ok - this is a new one - and I may be getting too picky...

Regrettably I trusted lock washers and I neglected to put thread locker on the slotted screws for my starter rear cover. The rattling noise and oil pouring out was my first clue. One of the screws is lost forever - and these slotted screws are not that easy to get to - so I went in search of Socket Head Cap Screws instead. Here's the rub - these screws are not a 1/4-20 or 1/4-28 pitch. They appear to be 1/4-24 x 1/2 inch ! I never heard of a 1/4-24 thread and neither has McMaster / Olander - and a few other suppliers.

Fortunately Lang's does supply these slotted screws but I still would like to find a SHCS (Because I am fundamentally lazy) So far I found just one supplier with this SHCS thread size / pitch but it's 1 and 1/2 inch long (https://military-fasteners.com/screws/s ... MS16998-60) and its a AN (Army Navy Mil spec')

I suppose I can keep using slotted - but out of curiosity does anyone happen to know of a supplier who might have it in a socket head?

thanks all and have a good one


Quoting Voltair: "Il meglio è l'inimico del bene", or (The best is the enemy of the good.)

Could they be #14-24?

If you must have an allen head, there is a close enuf metric size a lot of guys use. 6MM? & a metric allen wrench. Personally I go with slotted.
Used to be Bob's sold the correct screws when he was retailing. Might try him.
The langs screws have a larger diameter head compared to stock. Still fit fine.
Use a dab of ultra black on the threads. They wont back out on their own or leak.

Humblej wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 31, 2024 1:08 pm

Could they be #14-24?

Yes..............

Is this a common problem with these screws?

Getting back to your replies - 14-24 is a definite possibility but my thread tools don't have that one and that's also a bit off the path...

I may have found an answer though.

going back to the military supplier - I just found a 1/4-24 x 1/2 in match

https://military-fasteners.com/screws/s ... AS1351C5-8

for $11.22 for a pack of 5...

they also have a slightly longer one with holes for safety wire ---
https://military-fasteners.com/screws/s ... S1351C5H10

for $13.13 for a pack of 5...

Somehow safety wire seems like a good choice here - but that's just coming from my airplane days...

I think I'll just get the $0.50 ones from Langs- and locktite it this time .

THANK YOU ALL AGAIN for your feedback

ElGranadaT wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 31, 2024 1:36 pm

Is this a common problem with these screws?

Getting back to your replies - 14-24 is a definite possibility but my thread tools don't have that one and that's also a bit off the path...

I may have found an answer though.

going back to the military supplier - I just found a 1/4-24 x 1/2 in match

https://military-fasteners.com/screws/s ... AS1351C5-8

for $11.22 for a pack of 5...

they also have a slightly longer one with holes for safety wire ---
https://military-fasteners.com/screws/s ... S1351C5H10

for $13.13 for a pack of 5...

Somehow safety wire seems like a good choice here -

$11 + the cost of the odd tap! Thats a lot of effort & cost to modify your HH. They dont need to be safety wired. (refer to my previous answer)
They wont fit without rethreading to the larger 1/4-24.
14-24 & 1/4-24 are not the same diameter.
If you are going to butcher the HH anyway, rethread to 1/4-28 or 1/4-20. I wouldn't do this.
Go metric, at least the next caretaker can go back to the correct screws since the threads wont be changed.

Getting back to your replies - 14-24 is a definite possibility but my thread tools don't have that one and that's also a bit off the path...

I believe Jeff & John are trying to tell you that the size you need is 14-24, so not "off the path".

They are same size as the old original mag screws. You could get a 1/4” x whatever TPI you like tap and tap them out. Did all the time back in the last century till I got these.

Bendix cover screws are metric threaded

Jeff and John have it correct: #14 x 24tpi

Confirmed on the Model T bolt list.

Great conversation- thanks again all - I am always amazed at the depth of knowledge on Ford T's...

At this point- I 100% agree its 14-24 --- I am abandoning my SHCS idea though in favor of "Keep It Simple Sheridan" -
So - solution?
-
I just bought a set of shiny new slotted screws from Langs. Given the driver slots and threads wont be as worn, and coving all with Loctite RED Threadlocker- this case is closed...

Yes - A bit more twisting and cursing- and maybe a second shot of Tequila after I'm done - but Vert De Furk... It is a T ...

Well, good decision on the screws.
However, red locktite is "permanent" Removing the screws will require heat. Torch. Not good. Use blue in this application if you must.
Better, Use a little ultra black. Thats the best gasket sealer for the gasket anyway. If you want to reuse the gasket the next time apart, smear a little motor oil on the HH surface before setting the siliconed gasket & cover.

A nice long electricians screw driver for the finish home & a long vaco screw holding driver to start the screws makes the job easy, not that I want to discourage the extra alcohol. Good luck.

Here is the proof of the correect size.

As you can see Bendix cover screws are NOT Metric!

speedytinc wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 31, 2024 3:11 pm

Well, good decision on the screws.
However, red locktite is "permanent" Removing the screws will require heat. Torch. Not good. Use blue in this application if you must.
Better, Use a little ultra black. Thats the best gasket sealer for the gasket anyway. If you want to reuse the gasket the next time apart, smear a little motor oil on the HH surface before setting the siliconed gasket & cover.

A nice long electricians screw driver for the finish home & a long vaco screw holding driver to start the screws makes the job easy, not that I want to discourage the extra alcohol. Good luck.

thanks about the locktite- red vs blue

I bought my first electricians screw holding driver in 1974 - (EAK! 50 years!) I still use it , )

Another tip if you weren’t aware. Use a long screwdriver with a square shaft. Then use a small open end wrench that fits the shaft to provide a little extra torque to finish tightening the screws.

I use a long electrician's screwdriver, AND a 2" length of 1/4" black fuel hose. Force the screw head into the end of the hose, then insert the screwdriver down the hose to engage the screw slot. Now you have the screw held and the driver is ready to start it down the hole.

Hope this helps,
Allan from down under.

Allan wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 31, 2024 6:55 pm

I use a long electrician's screwdriver, AND a 2" length of 1/4" black fuel hose. Force the screw head into the end of the hose, then insert the screwdriver down the hose to engage the screw slot. Now you have the screw held and the driver is ready to start it down the hole.

Hope this helps,
Allan from down under.

Great tip. Thanks.

You are welcome John! I understand the task is more difficult for you guys having to work around the pedals too.

Allan from down under.

They are #14-24 and yes....unique.

Someone once wrote that they installed the 3 o'clock screw !/2 way without the Bendix cover in place, then turned one hole on the Bendix cover to a notch...wiggled it in place, then tightened. I have never tried this one myself...

I usually just push the screw through blue painters tape, set blade in screw slot, wrap tape around screwdriver shank!... When it is in, it tears away clean.

The late Ralph Ricks always swore by just going metric socket head once and for all and be done with it and use a long key. Even though the M6 metric screw is near identical to a #14 in diameter, the pitch is slightly 'off' and it's 25.4 threads per inch on the M6...Ralph claimed it stretched good enough to stay tight...

Thank you George for reminding me about Ralph Ricks' replacement suggestion. Gosh that goes back 25 - 30 or so years ago and more recent was the last that we met up in Albany New York when he was doing the " big race " east to west.

Hi all,

just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water... along comes another shark -

So, I ordered Lang's p/n 5060 Screws, Starter rear end cap to motor housing, Included Items:
___4: 5060-I Screws, Starter ear end cap to motor housing... Wouldn't you know it- they were
10-32 x 3/8 screws. Oh well... schtuff happens - Lang's is rarely off - and we all have our days...

So... plan B - What's the next simplest choice aside from drilling and tapping?

Let's try that M6 ...

I'll let you know the results soon

Thanks again

You got what you ordered - starter end cap screws.

You should have ordered - "5059RE, replacment style bendix cover screws."

"Correct #14 x 24 threaded slotted screws for bendix cover. Has a .030" bigger diameter head than the stock screws."

$.85 each.

I have used metric Allen screws for years, I think ever since I hear Rick suggest it. They go in a bit snug but not enough to mess up the threads, just enough so they won't loosen on their own. A long Allen wrench makes the install easy. Nice easy solution to my mind. Of course, this is on my speedster so originality isn't necessary.

I really don't get it. Why buy a dubious alternative when the original screws are available, although the slightly larger head diameter may make my earlier tip a little more difficult.

Allan from down under.

Allan wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 05, 2024 9:22 pm

I really don't get it. Why buy a dubious alternative when the original screws are available, although the slightly larger head diameter may make my earlier tip a little more difficult.

Allan from down under.

True but the larger head still fits the can fine.
Snyders shows those screws with the correct smaller head. If thats what you get?

ElGranadaT wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 05, 2024 5:34 pm

Hi all,

just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water... along comes another shark -

So, I ordered Lang's p/n 5060 Screws, Starter rear end cap to motor housing, Included Items:
___4: 5060-I Screws, Starter ear end cap to motor housing... Wouldn't you know it- they were
10-32 x 3/8 screws. Oh well... schtuff happens - Lang's is rarely off - and we all have our days...

So... plan B - What's the next simplest choice aside from drilling and tapping?

Let's try that M6 ...

I'll let you know the results soon

Thanks again

The simplest choice is to order the correct screws. You ordered the wrong screws.

Using the correct factory Bendix cover machine screws is the way to go.

And don't forget the lock washers too, while Lang's supply them with their set of Bendix screws (5059S) and only $1.95 for the set!



A long 12" shaft screwdriver helps a bunch to reach those pesky screws

I use metric lock washers - I believe 6mm - 1/4" seems too large.

I'm not a fan of slotted head screws but want to keep mine original as much a possible. Coming from the motorcycle world, I have fallen in love with my impact screwdriver. The adapter can be changed out for a socket extension making it easy to get to those screws. The bits are readily available in various styles and sizes. The body of the tool is large, giving a good grip to crank down with good control, eliminating buggered screw heads.

speedytinc wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 05, 2024 6:14 pm

You got what you ordered - starter end cap screws.

You should have ordered - "5059RE, replacment style bendix cover screws."

"Correct #14 x 24 threaded slotted screws for bendix cover. Has a .030" bigger diameter head than the stock screws."

$.85 each.

This is why this site is so great. THANKS!

The 5060 part that I purchased was listed as ... "Screws, Starter rear end cap to motor housing" - and looks right in the photo.

The 5059RE you called out didn't have a photo - but is is described as "replacement style bendix cover screws" with a note about the thread size...

So - plan B is now try 5059RE

if not then Plan C = Metric... but to keep it simple- SHCS

Yes. You are back on track.

The larger than stock Langs screw heads could be easily made smaller turning in a hand drill against a bench grinder.
Not at all necessary for these hidden screws unless you are an uber originalist. The larger heads make the install a bit easier.

Those 14 X 24 Screws are used in several places.

The original starter ring gears used 14 X 24 brass screws.

I was told they are now being made in China with 1/4 X 24, due to an error translation there that leaving out the / was an American mistake.

The Mag Terminal screws on the earlier transmission covers are also 14 X 24, if I recall correctly.

I took my cover off last night to replace the old leaky gasket and found all four screws to be different. One of them was the correct screw. A few were larger screws with ground down threads. I may have to chase the threads. I ordered the Langs 5059RE screws. I could make a thread chaser out of the one good screw if I need to.

Or use a 14-24 tap, this one seems reasonably priced, didn't check availability. I have no association with this company. jb

https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/04439451

RecklessKelly wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 09, 2024 9:03 pm

I took my cover off last night to replace the old leaky gasket and found all four screws to be different. One of them was the correct screw. A few were larger screws with ground down threads.

This was most likely the reason your cover came loose in the first place. The advice, above, to use an actual 14-24 tap to chase the threads is the way to go.

It was very loose but defying gravity. When I saw two lock washers under the top screw I knew something was up. 14-24 tap- $4.97 online at Home Depot.

Post a link to that tap at HD

See pic. There is a self drilling sheetmetal screw of the same size and pitch, could be why they sell the tap. The thread percentage of the threaded hh hole may be greater than the standard H3, so I wouldnt run a tap in the hole unless needed as that would result in a sloppy thread. The hh casting holes are blind and just deep enough to accept the standard screw and washer. For chasing the thead, one may have to grind down the point a little to get the bottom threads cleaned.

RecklessKelly wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 10, 2024 8:39 am

See pic. There is a self drilling sheetmetal screw of the same size and pitch, could be why they sell the tap. The thread percentage of the threaded hh hole may be greater than the standard H3, so I wouldnt run a tap in the hole unless needed as that would result in a sloppy thread. The hh casting holes are blind and just deep enough to accept the standard screw and washer. For chasing the thead, one may have to grind down the point a little to get the bottom threads cleaned.

You're overthinking this. H3 is a standard thread clearance. It will be fine. The only possible issue is if whoever rammed in the wrong screws also damaged the HH threads. (They obviously did, or you wouldn't need to chase the threads. Just hoping the damage isn't too great.) Yes, if you can't buy a bottoming tap, then grind off the point, or maybe even just a bit more.

The holes are NOT blind. Non issue.
You may have heard stories where 1 screw falls out & all the oil gets pumped out of a motor.

Mine bottom out with a caliper rod.

Someone might have broken the original off tightening too tight ?

Just following up on the difference between 5060 and 5059RE. here is where the 5060 (10-32) screws go. It was entirely my FUBAR to order these -
The description was "Set of 4 small screws that mount the rear end cap to the starter motor housing. Steel"
As pointed out by a few of you- the correct 14-24 screws from Lang are 5059RE

Martin,
At least you asked about the screws.

When I replaced my Bendix cover screws, I bought 1/4 instead of #14 because I didn't even know there was a #14. The 1/4" were tight, so I re-tapped the threads. Our T is now stuck with that "upgrade". I had no clue starting out that I should ask about those things.

Martin, upon looking @ your starter, I notice a couple issues. Your lower insulator is broken, missing or incorrect.
The washer That sits on top should be smaller than the insulator. There is a large steel washer that sits quite close to your brush cover band.
If your terminal stud is still snug to the internal buss bar, I would put the proper parts in play.
The nut that holds the stud(lower) should be brass & the upper nut to hold the cable S/B steel.
For clarification, Parts are: Formed insulator, thin brass washer, brass nut, cable, then top steel nut.
If the stud is loose, it needs re-soldering. (this is a common problem on these starters & limit cranking current)

The loose stud on the buss bar to which John refers occurs when the lower nut screws the terminal around when it is wound down too tightly. When assembling the components it pays to have a third nut on hand. John's order of assembly is spot on. However, if the lower nut is wound down tight, it will tend to screw the terminal around, thus breaking the solder joint on the internal buss bar. When installing that lower nut I wind three nuts on. The last two are locked together on the end of the stud. Then the lowest one is wound down to contact the brass washer. With a wrench on the lower of the two locked nuts, the lowest nut can then be firmed up on the washer/insulator without screwing the terminal about.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.

Hi - Sorry, I failed to mention that the image I posted of a starter is not my starter. Mine is new. This image came to me from Lang's tech support, after I asked where, exactly, the 10-32 screws go.

Cap screws and gasket came in today. I got my cap on, the threads were fine. Yes they are thru holes. I put some sealant on them and the gasket as well.

RecklessKelly wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 12, 2024 9:55 pm

Cap screws and gasket came in today. I got my cap on, the threads were fine. Yes they are thru holes. I put some sealant on them and the gasket as well.

Great.

Wondering how Martin is doing, since this started out as his thread?

For a 14x24 tap, check with your local NAPA store. I purchased 2 or 3 of them from about 12 years ago. They ordered them and were there in about 2 days.

Greetings all - Finally wrapping this one up -

Got the CORRECT Screws from Lang's (Thanks to all for your help with that ! ) Worked great! No real issues but used thread locker and thanks for the tip about a wrench on my square screwdriver - I've done that before - but it's one of those many things you forget about over the years... -

The other piece of related news- swapped out Bendix spring while I was there- and put a new gasket on the starter- Between the cap and started gasket I fixed an annoying oil drip also ...

So - case closed-
until next time-

Thanks again and keep em' flyin'

Hope you bent the tabs over on your bendix screw washers, otherwise you will need to open it up and do that. Should last another 100 years.

Ford used 1/4"-24 screws so you had to buy them from Ford.

I rethreaded mine to 1/4-20 years ago. You cannot tell, and they work fine.

Ford used 14 X 24 screws in several places.

Those brass screws that hold the magnets in place are also originally 14 X 24 screws.

Now, if you have an older starter ring gear to install, you need that size or have to do a retap.

The newer starter ring gears that are apparently made in China have those holes tapped for 1/4 X 24 screws.

There is only about .003 difference in the two sizes.

A 6 mm lock washer fits the original size perfectly.

big2bird wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 26, 2024 7:13 pm

Ford used 1/4"-24 screws so you had to buy them from Ford.

I rethreaded mine to 1/4-20 years ago. You cannot tell, and they work fine.

No. Ford used 14-24 screws because that was a standard thread size back then. They were available from many sources.

As Jerry points out...#14 was a standard size when the Model T was designed. (There were further # sizes even higher but for some reason it appears that Ford chose to use the emerging SAE system for his bigger ones and thus the crossover). While SAE did exist and Ford was even an officer in the era before the T...personalities must of clashed as there is a whole lot of Ford practices that never made it into the SAE system by the time SAE was considered 'mature' about 1921or so.

As to the wives tail that the Chinese got confused and misread and used 1/4-24 and screwed up the whole thing in the first place? That's actually a tongue in cheek deflection that gained traction. For the first 20 years or so of mainland Chinese making product exclusive for export to USA in the Imperial measuring system, all of the companies that held export licenses had the standing rules and expectations right at quote time that the American buyer was to supply all actual tooling with the order so that the Chinese would NOT make a mistake in systems translation...changing OD and ID to metric is a slam dunk in either direction...Drills and taps and hydraulic fittings? Oh my...