MTFCA Forum

I found this elsewhere on the www. It apparently is a top to convert a Touring into a closed sedan. I have never seen one, not even a picture before. Anybody else got one? Can anyone direct me to more pics & info on them?

At least locally they were referred to as a “California Top”. Not sure why. I don’t believe I’ve ever seen one restored with a car, the few I’ve examined in “found” state were pretty rickety - the owners opted to restore the car as a factory open car. As an option, regardless the make, before 1930 open cars sold new for a ñot less than the closed models. One could (presumably) enjoy the luxury and advantages of an enclosed car for a lot less money.

It’s great this T was restored with the accessory top, what an interesting piece of history !

Yeah I like that one! I have only seen a handful of modern era photos of surviving or restored model Ts with one of that type conversion. And good era photos of such cars are rare. I do have a couple era photos on my computer showing part of sedan conversions hiding in old dark garages or in other ways not showing much.
Really nice to see this OP photo! Thank you for sharing it here.

There are a few craftmen who could replicate one if prints are available. Designing one from scratch would be quite a challenge.

If you search there was one for sale here a while back.

Dan Hatch wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 08, 2024 7:51 pm

If you search there was one for sale here a while back.

Yes, I think it was in poor condition, if we are thinking of the same one.
It would be neat to have them replicated!
I wonder how they were atratched to the car.

Nice rig but I think I'd be fixing that oil leak !!!

I know the owner of the car in the picture and I looked at it again Friday. Above the rear window is a tag from the manufacturer. It’s Miller of Caro, Michigan.

He has done a good job of keeping the car original .

There were several makers of such tops.
here are two versions

California Top.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=36110&p=296906&hili ... op#p296906

Interesting. California usually has good weather for driving with the top down or up with the wind blowing through. You would think they would name the top for a wetter colder part of the country!
Norm

[I found this elsewhere on the www. It apparently is a top to convert a Touring into a closed sedan. I have never seen one, not even a picture before. Anybody else got one? Can anyone direct me to more pics & info on them?
[/quote]

Yes it is me that had posted the top for sale. Its owned by Craig Beek notable Brass Model T collector. He had purchased a touring with the top but removed and has it stored in his Museum aong with 17 other Model T's. California Tops were slightly different but the reference is a generality for the style. The windows roll up underneath the top. I have seen it personally, its stored high up in the rafters. The fabric needs to be restored, the original still available for a pattern. eMail me via the forum if interested. Craig is computer challenged so I do it for him I believe its priced less than a convertible top
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A California Top (In Australia and elsewhere also) is a different design to the top in question.
Here is an ad for one avalable in Sydney in 1923 and a "Spark" ( a Ford rebadged which also offered the California Top)
There were blinds which pulled down between the windscreen and the back curverd fixed window.

REO offered such tops for their cars. I have a 1917 Roadster that has it in the catalog. They also show one for their Touring cars. I don't know when they started or ended availability of this type of top. They DO NOT look like folding tops at all. They look very substantial and solid. I have never seen a REO with one installed, but there probably are a few out there.

I also have a 1925 Studebaker Roadster that HAS the "California Top" on it now. It is removable, but is like a hard top. You can't put it down, and there is no folding top with the car. It is pretty substantial, with a lot of steel in it. I assume you would hoist it above the car, inside your garage, and just put it on in the wintertime.

I have been told that Studebaker came out with the first "California Top" but I don't know if that is correct or not.

The Detroit Top literature
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As william stated the California Top is a solid roof.
Here is the Spark interior which shows it has a headlining.
I don't think the top was ever meant to be taken off even in summer.

Studebaker in the mid to late 1920s called theirs the "duplex phaeton" and "duplex roadster". They were essentially "California" tops. The name "California tops" was used by several regional companies in their product advertising. I suspect but do not know that Studebaker used the different name to avoid potential trademark infringement.
California style tops go back at least to the mid 1910s. A very good longtime friend has a 1915/'16 Pierce Arrow with a California top, said to have been since new, and one of several built that way at the time. I have ridden in it a few times. Years ago, I found a photo on the young internet of a Pierce Arrow that looks just like my friend's car. I managed to harvest the photo, and have a nice print made of it to give to my friend. We discussed it at some length. His car has a known history from new, and although looking very much like his car, it is well known that his car had not been near the area where the photo was taken in those years. So the photo was of one of the several others built.

California tops were substantial fixed roofs that often had glass side windows in frames that either folded up and hung on the roof near the center, or slid on rails clear into the back corner of the fixed roof. California tops were available from regional manufacturers to fit any standard style open body car (including model T Fords).
Sedan conversion kits like the OP car and some of the advertising shared above, often had door windows fixed to the doors. In some the windows might even lower into a "pocket" inside the door. Or the fixed windows might be removeable for nicer weather, and otherwise be fixed to the doors and open and close with the doors (seen that).
Automotive terminology over the years gets twisted and altered around. Original meanings and colloquialisms often get lost. Sedan conversion kits may or may not be called "California tops", but they are slightly different in approach and construction. What someone chooses to call them doesn't likely bother me either way.

I was wondering how much weight they add to the car. I could build one that would be lightweight but I'm not sure how it would hold up to the wind.
This is very interesting. Thanks to all who responded, any one else?

There was was a fellow here in Minneapolis, who has long since passed, who owned and restored the 1923 Peerless 66 touring shown in this link:

https://www.theboatbroker.com/inventory ... e-reduced/

I saw and rode in this car when I was a teenager years ago.

It has a California top which, from the exterior, looks exactly like a typical one-man touring/phaeton folding top except that it is fully lined and does not fold down.

It does not have any provisions for sliding or stowing windows on the underside of the top. I believe it has side curtains which utilize posts/rods which are inserted into the holes along the tops of the doors.

I don't think weight would be a serious problem if you used period-type construction and modern glass. A high compression head would restore lost performance, and the comfort level would be much improved. Aerodynamics would most likely be improved when driving over 30 MPH with the windows up. I'd consider lowering the windshield height by two to four inches and keeping the height of the top proportionate. (Women don't wear those huge hats anymore) Good ventilation would be a must, and insulating the car's floor and booting the pedals and levers to keep dust, heat, and fumes out would also be advisable. Care would need to be taken with filling a gas tank under the seat. It would be best to relocate it where it could be filled and vented outside the body, or at least contrive some kind of an outside filler and vent.

I think Pat is overthinking what problems might arise when one has an enclosed Model T. Thousands of other bodies and gadgets to make them as such were in existance. I have such a body on a T (a Kamper) it is enclosed has side curtains which can be attached if weather is bad. There is no insulation on the floor, no boots for pedals, It's RHD so the exhaust adds some extra heat.
The roof is higher than most other T's (7foot 3in) Being a kamper one sleeps in it. The gas tank is still under the seat, fumes are not a problem even when sealed up for sleeping. Driving in over 100 degree temp it's hot but so are any Model T's and you have shade and no sunburn to worry about.
I'm sure any Centerdoor, Fordoor or Coupe driver and passenger are similary comfortable without any extra modifications. Though everyone is different, I once had a ride in a Touring which had air conditioning in it on a tour in Missouri.

One advantage of a top with structure would be that you could use an evaporative auto cooler. They can be very effective in hot dry climates.

Heat intrusion is an issue here in summer with any vehicle. Dust, too.

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 09, 2024 9:50 pm

One advantage of a top with structure would be that you could use an evaporative auto cooler. They can be very effective in hot dry climates.

We have a "swamp cooler" that we use on our '40 Chevy sedan.