MTFCA Forum

Once the ignition maladies on the '14 Touring with '19 motor were cured (I hope!) the center soft or freeze plug started leaking. I have been doing a lot of flushes with vaious brews to try to get the car to run cool like the '23 does and the latest attempt was with Evaporust cooling system flush. I had intended to drive the car several times and get it good and hot over the course of a week then drain it. When the ignition died and the ignition was being worked on the time went from one week to six or eight. When the motor was running again it got several runs in the garage and became good and hot, a bit of steam out of the neck and some mild gurgling from the engine. It never boiled and I monitored the temps with an infrared thermo.

After the last run I noticed the carb was getting wet on top. Investigation showed the center freeze plug leaking! I can only guess that the flushes cleaned out some of the crap which was sealing up the leak previously.

There are three of these plugs and to get at them, the manifolds had to come off. Getting the big exhaust nut off proved to be a job. I soaked it in Areokroil for several days and then proceeded to try getting it off with that big wrench sold for this job. It seems to me the handle should be at least two or three times longer than it was. I even tried standing on the wrench and I'm no lightweight. No soap.

More Aerokroil and some pounding with a large rubber mallet was tried but that didn't seem to move the nut either. Not having a torch, I tried a combination of more kroil followed by more and harder pounding. Eventually, I saw movement and then the nut decided to yield and allowed itself to be worked off.

The two manifolds came off easily. Those nuts had also been soaked in the Aerokroil and all came off with no who haw. One of the studs (of course) came out but that's OK, it gave more room to work on the freeze plugs. These were thick and needed to be drilled out. The two end ones were brass and the leaky center one was steel.

New brass plugs were installed with a 9/16 socket and dimpled with a punch. The Right Stuff 90 minute gasket goop was used. I have some water in the system now and they are not leaking.

Once off the exhaust manifold was checked with a straight edge. While not perfect, it looked useable to my eyes. See the picture below.

The gaskets that were on were a copper ring with a ridge. I saw no sign of leakage and ordered a new set of the same type.

When I next have time to work on this project I would like to reinstall the manifolds. I was thinking of using The Right Stuff 90 minute gasket goop in the ports in the block to both seal & hold the gaskets in place while the manifolds are maneuvered into position & the clamps tightened. Any problem with doing this?

When I last did this on the '23, someone had told me about a trick using the stock clamps & nuts to hold one manifold in place while getting the other one in place. I tried it and it worked great. The problem is that I can't remember just how it went. Was the exhaust first with the clamps verticle?

When it comes time to reintroduce that big nut to the back of the manifold should anti seize be used? I was concerned that being just about the hottest part of the motor it might burn into some sort of cement and make the job of removing it next time tougher rather than easier.

Paul

Hi Paul,
I would use the old gland rings to make sure the exhaust manifold will fit, I have not had much luck eyeballing the ports to determine if they are straight. I have never used that type of manifold rings but see no harm in silicone to hold them in place. The manifold helpers I had ( infuses on
had) where made by cutting one ear off of two clamps & welding a tube to keep them aligned on the studs. I would put the exhaust on first with the clamp on # 1 & 4 cylinders then install the intake, then replace the helper clamps on the ends.
Craig.

You'd be safe to use these anti-seize products good for up to 1600degrees. In any case the exhaust nut clamp or even a hose clamp to keep the nut getting loose is a good idea ant-seize or not. --
Another trick is to use two manifold clamps (or two with one ear cut off) to mount one manifold. The when mounting the second manifold use fully eared clamps and when secure, rotate the first installed clamps (or remove the half eared ones and replace with the real clamps)

Hudson29 wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 25, 2024 4:41 pm

When it comes time to reintroduce that big nut to the back of the manifold should anti seize be used? I was concerned that being just about the hottest part of the motor it might burn into some sort of cement and make the job of removing it next time tougher rather than easier.

Paul

Anti-seize is designed to prevent just that sort of thing.

A trial fit of the exhaust manifold makes good sense. I'll try that tonight with the old rings.

That picture is exactly what I was half remembering. Installing the manifolds on the '23 went so smoothly that it was a breeze.

The anti seize that I have is an old metal can of Permatex. I have used it for all sorts of things but did not know if it would be good for high temperature applications.

Paul

There is a reason that manifold wrench handle is not any longer.

You can slip a piece of 1 inch 2 foot long pipe on it for extra leverage.

That worked real good for me with a steady hard pull.

The nut stayed on the manifold, but that part was no longer attached to the rest of it.

Loosening the nut while the pipe is still hot is recommended and less likely to break the exaust manifold in two pieces.

I just installed a set of the manifold gaskets with the glands. The single piece bluish ones that come with the gasket kits blew out on me. I used red high temp RTV silicone to keep the rings and glands in place and it seems to be working good so far. One thing to note is I put a new exhaust manifold on, my old one was bent and I didn't want to fight with trying to bend it. Good luck putting it on if you don't use a perfectly straight manifold. My exhaust pack nut kept coming loose so I put a hose clamp with an aluminum bracket on and that seems to work. I did not use any anti-seize Compound on anything. I also did a trial fit of everything before I put it together. I had a set of special manifold clamps to help keep everything in place but I have heard that you can cut old model T manifold clamps in half and use them to help line things up as an extra set of hands.
Food for thought. Good luck!

Looking at the photo of the exhaust manifold and the ruler, your manifold looks to be well bent, with the back port low. If so, there is no way it will fit with the manifold rings properly located in the ports. If you can get the front thee rings fitted with the lips on the rings seated in the block ports, that type of ring with the thin copper flanges may crush well enough to seal around the back port. This is not an ideal situation, as the manifold is free to "walk" up and down on the block face with successive heat cycles. Ideally, a new manifold is the answer, with a set of the reusable heavy one piece copper rings to hold it captive against the block.

As others have pointed out, anti seize is the answer on the manifold nut. When getting a tight one to free up, ball pein hammer blows on each of the flats will help to break up rust/corrosion to allow better use of penetrant.

Hope this helps.

Allan from down under.

I think it is an old rusted Exhaust manifold which was holding the nut from coming off. If the threads are smooth the nut will screw right on. I like to use the clamp under the manifold with an offset piece as shown by the above picture. If the nut is old or cracked it will slide right off. So be sure the threads on both the manifold and the nut are in good condition before installing. I use high temp red permatex for a seal around the freeze plugs. They will seal tight if you use a flat punch to spread them when installing, but sometimes if the old ones have been leaking the seat in the block can be uneven and the permatex will hold the water from leaking and will not burn off with heat.
Norm

I have been doing what Roger shows in the first photo for years. No reason to cut the clamps when doing it that way.

I think your manifold looks pretty darned good. The real test is how it fits up.

As others have mentioned, too much effort with the pack nut can get you a broken manifold.

I had a try of the manifold last night. Using the old glands the 4 best fitting ones were selected. They were pressed into the manifold and all would hold pretty well. It seemed to fit into the block OK. I have been advised to get a mirror and see if it still looks good from underneath. I'll try that this weekend.

I like the high temp silicone idea.

Paul

I had a try at installing the manifolds Sunday. The rear stud had come out with the nut when disassembled so I chucked it in the vice and turned the nut off. Both stud & nut had the threads chased which took plenty of oomph on the stud. Everything was scraped and cleaned with solvent on both the block & manifolds. The exhaust manifold was already checked with the old gland gaskets and fit fine. The rear stud was installed in the block, no worries at all. I had high expectations for this job.

The Right Stuff gasket goop was used on the intake manifold glands and a high temp silicone on the exhaust glands. All were inserted in the block after a trial fit in the manifold. All looked good.

The fitting of the manifolds did not go to plan. The exhaust seemed to lock in pretty well and the vertical clamp trick was used to hold it in place while the intake was maneuvered into place. All still looked good.

The problem came when tightening the nuts on the studs. The first three were good, the rear nut stripped the threads off the stud. All of these studs were short to my mind previously, see bottom picture to see how they were when I started. I like to see the stud sticking out past the nut, none of these did. In addition to being short, the stud in back had been cut at the factory at an angle so in addition to being short it had a partial amount of threads on the all important end. This morning I measured the studs, that back one was the shortest of the four.

After struggling with this for a bit I decided that it would all have to wait for another day after new and longer studs had been sourced. Off it all came and everything was cleaned up as well as I could get it. It will still need a final cleaning. Does anything remove this silicone gasket goop outside if scraping?

Now I'd like to get new studs that have the same amount of treads with an additional 1/4" or so of threaded length on the outside. I see the suppliers have studs in their catalogs. Are they the same as I have now or just a bit longer? If I have to go to McMaster or other supplier, what grade do I need to get?

Paul

Your studs were long enough. They just had terrible threads to begin with, due to age, use & rust. The rear stud was not "cut at the factory" that way. The first few threads have simply rusted away over the past 100 years. If you want an extra couple of threads showing beyond the nuts, then don't thread them into the block as deep.

New studs are relatively inexpensive - replace them all and & use brass nuts. Do away with all the "goop" ! If your exhaust manifold is true on plane of all 4 ports, just use the ring & gland set. I prefer to install my intake first verifying I got a good fit as you can see the 2 ports then I install the exhaust secondly because one can look down over it and verify it's fit.

Why brass nuts? I had a '26 Hudson Super Six that had brass nuts on the manifold but either never knew or or have forgotten why.

Paul

Paul, brass nuts will not rust in place, so are more easily removed.

Using the clamps vertically may hold the manifold in place, but it will not allow much tension before it cants the manifold inwards at the top, upsetting he seating of the glands in the manifold. Cutting off one side of an eroded clamp will allow a second use for an otherwise non usable part. Using it on the level will keep the manifold seated in the block. Just don't tighten the nuts too much or you will jam the clamp on the stud.

Allan from down under.

This simple "half hour" job ended up costing hours of work and weeks of delay while successive waves of parts were shipped in to fix the problem only to find fresh problems. All that time and money were wasted outside of the learning experience.

The new one piece gaskets would not allow the old manifold to fit into the block. The manifold looked pretty straight with a straight edge but even with the middle port gaskets left off, it wouldn't fit. I ordered a new manifold. That had solved all issues with the '23 years ago and I expected the same here. No soap, the new one wouldn't fit either. Both the new & the old manifolds seemed to be about an 1/8" too long.

Ring & glands were ordered and they seemed to fit better. Using both hands, both new & old manifolds could be teased into place. Seeing both fit, I choose the old Ford manifold and using the high temp goop tried to fit it. It did fit but would not stay in place long enough to position the clamps using the one available hand. I probably should admit that I am very weak these days having just finished 6 months of chemo. I needed both hands to hold it in place and that was that. I was a good deal less than impressed with the gaps in those glands anyway.

Next I went back to the old one piece gaskets that were on the car when I took it apart. They fit into both the ports in the block & manifold. I do not like using old gaskets but with some of the Permatex high temp goop on the exhaust & The Right Stuff on the intake it went together and solidly enough for me to hold it with one hand. The clamps went on to hold the exhaust while the intake was maneuvered into place and then all the clamps were installed.

Previously we had discussed the manifold studs being too short. They were as the nuts still showed some threads well short of the end of the studs. I did an internet search looking for longer studs with fine threads on both ends. None were found! The suppliers offer some "stock" studs and I ordered a set of those. They were a trifle larger and I thought they might be an improvement. It did not prove to be the case. All of the additional length and a bit more was swallowed up when the studs seated deeper into the block. Now the nuts grab less threads than before. Look at the threads showing on the rear nut in the picture! These really need to be 1/2" longer. I may find some bolts and try replacing these studs at some future date.

After assembling the other bits the motor started and ran at a fast idle while everything was given a good lookover. The anti-seize compound burned off the manifold but I could see no signs of leakage anywhere so out we went for a test drive. All seemed normal so into town for gas where the car drew a small crowd of the curious most of whom had never seen a car that old before. Another 1/2 hour test drive revealed no issues at all.

Paul

Here is a pic of the car cooling in the garage after its test drive. The temps were in the mid 40s when I left for the drive and descended to the point where even the red in the Motormeter tried to go back into the radiator to stay warm. I had on three layers and that was not enough so I was very happy to head back home. This pic shows the car "cooling" off in the garage after its first drive in months.

Paul

You don't need to run the studs into the block until they bottom out.

Yes, that would make them bolts. Probably better to just use bolts next time.

While the motor was warming up at a fast idle and getting a look over for trouble, I took the 12v test light and clipped it to the magneto terminal and grounded it to the brake pedal. It lit brightly so I'm thinking the magneto works. The previous owner had installed an E-Timer so I had thought that possibly it might not work or maybe it might be spotty.

While the test light was out I clipped it to the nut the holds the cut out to the generator and grounded the other wire to a head bolt. The bulb lit about as well as if it were connected to the battery. That would seem to indicate that the generator is also working. Some good news in these tests.

Paul

Hudson29 wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 13, 2024 6:03 pm

Yes, that would make them bolts.

Paul

Okay then...