Loose spoke problem

[woodrow]

There are two slightly loose spokes on one wheel of our '15 touring and on an earlier post I read several comments praising the product, "Chair-Loc". The comments said that this product swells wood and has been very successful in fixing loose spokes and other wood connections. I've been trying to find a source for Chair-Loc but no luck so far. Comments please. Thanks

[RustyFords]

Here's one source for it.

http://www.westernwooddoctor.com/chairloc.htm

I bet Amazon has it too.

[woodrow]

Thlanks Don, however I've tried that site and the phone number they give is: 360-299-2464 and I've had no luck dialing that. They have a picture of the product on their site but no joy in contacting them. Maybe it's because I have a cheap phone??

[woodrow]

Still no luck in contacting WoodDoctor, however Ace Hardware in Montgomery has some. I'll go check it out. Thanks

[Russ T Fender]

I used spoke shims to tighten the spokes on my speedster. They worked great. I had some NOS shims but you can make them from washers if needed.

[Rich Bingham]

Just a suggestion - if you find loose spokes in a wheel, "more study is indicated" as the academics like to say. The cause may be beyond the ability of a product that tightens up a chair to effect a safe repair.

[Russ T Fender]

I noticed from your profile that you have a '15. If it has wood felloe wheels forget what I said about the spoke shims. If it is loose at the felloe you need to rewood.

[Budreau]

Here is a similar product on Amazon (be sure to use Amazon smile and select Model T Ford Club of America as a donation). https://www.amazon.com/Wonderlockking-W ... =Chair-Loc

On the old forum, there were quite a few suggestions to include epoxy, Chair-Loc, etc... I think the general consensus is eventually you need to replace the wood. http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/161525.html

[Mark Osterman]

I have also used spoke shims and love the repair. My suggestion is to address the problem as soon as possible. The more clicking you hear ... the more wood that’s being abraided away and the more dangerous they become. I give all my spokes a light wrap with a rubber hammer on occasion to listen for loose spokes.

[Stephen_heatherly]

I respectfully suggest that you get the wheel rebuilt. This is one area where you don't want to cut corners.

Stephen

[Allan]

Mark, I don't use a rubber hammer. Next time you feel like using your test, just tap the spokes with the back of a knuckle. Either hand will do. The noise you hear will identify if any of the spokes are loose.

I'm with rebuilding the wheel rather than patching it up. There is no substitute for doing the job properly, especially where safety is concerned.

Allan from down under.

[jiminbartow]

Using a wood swelling product to fix a chair that supports a person is much different than fixing a spoke that must support a thousand lbs. Chair-loc may swell the wood but it will not repair the underlying problems that caused the wood to shrink in the first place, mainly age, deterioration and wear. Please get a new wheel. Too dangerous to save money and put yourself and others in danger. Jim Patrick

[Thorlick]

Rebuilding a wheel completely will just about always solve the problem. This approach to the problem is not always necessary to end up with tight, safe, good looking wheels. Although not considered an expert by many, I have had occasion to deal with loose spokes on my T cars... both metal and wooden felloe styles.

Shimming metal felloe wheels is quick and easy to do with the proper tools at hand. Shimming loose wooden felloe wheels is totally different and more difficult, but can be done and is easily mastered.

On my first 1913 car I had to rebuild a failing wheel. I accomplished this by using spokes and felloes from an old discarded 1909 Huppmobile... worked great. At the same time I found loose spokes on the other wheels. The technique I used in shimming my wooden felloe wheels is completely different from that used on the metal felloe.

On metal felloes I use a spoke jack to open the space between felloe and spoke then insert a shim there. This is done on spoke pairs 180 degrees apart to keep the wheel round.

On wooden felloes the above will not work as the shims will sink into the wood felloe. It is therefore necessary to shim between the felloe and the non-demountable rim. This is accomplished by using sheet metal strips (I have mine cut to the felloe's width by the local HVAC repair shop using galvanized steel) wrapped around the felloe inside of the rim. I drill out the rivets first and remove the rim. You must remember to remove the tube for the valve stem... you may need to make a new valve stem tube. Next you cut your shim to the length you want (this depends on how loose your spokes are. you nail one end to the felloe with finishing nails or tacs. Pulling the shim tight as you work your way along the circumference you add nails as you go. Drill holes in the shim for the rivets and valve stem tube. The next step is to heat the rim, I use a "rosebud" tip on my acetylene torch, line it up with the felloe and drop it in to place. Quench the rim with water (hose or bucket) to cause it to tighten up. You don't have to be in too much of a rush as the shim will prevent the felloe from igniting. I then put the wheel onto the car so I can use a rubber mallet to true the rim verifying true with a dial gauge. Once this is done I replace the rivets and stem tube swaging them to place. The final step of shimming is to repaint the wheel!

With this technique you will be able to save a wheel from a trip to a wheel builder or from having to build it all new yourself. You can end up with a very strong, safe and beautiful wheel. But best of all if you understand how to do this you can make an educated choice on what to do with your loose wheels.

The wheels in my profile photo have been recently rebuilt right where the car sits. After many of tens of thousands of miles and more than 15 years in service with more and more shims the wheels finally reached a point where rebuild was the wisest choice. Jut look at your wheels and intelligently chose your course of action.

IMHO, TH

[RGould1910]

Agree with Mr Horlick. I have banded wood fello wheels many times and
they hold up well. The key to a longlasting repair is to use the right shim thickness to get them tight.

[RGould1910]

Agree with Mr Horlick. I have banded wood fello wheels many times and
they hold up well. The key to a longlasting repair is to use the right shim thickness to get them tight.

[RGould1910]

Sorry for the double post.

[Oldav8tor]

Terry- spoke jack? How about some photos of the tools and shims you use? I have steel felloes and demountable rims. My spokes are tight but I’d like to learn more for when I do have problems.

Great topic BTW.

[woodrow]

Update on my original post: I agree that I needed to do something about the offending wheel so I decided to replace that wheel with a very good spare one that came with the car when I bought it. The "new" wheel has good, tight spokes all around and I sure feel better now that I have replaced the first wheel. FYI: When I pulled the hub from the bad wheel all the spokes just fell out loose on the floor. Sure appreciate all the good suggestioins. I'll see if I can come up with some creative, artistic use for the old spokes and rim. Thanks

[Thorlick]

Woodrow,
I suggest keeping all the parts of that wheel You are now set up for proper shimming as I discussed.

Oldav8or,
I have posted intructions indluding photos on how to shim metal felloe wheels and showing spoke jacks. With the change over of the forum there seems to be difficulty in searching the old posts for you. I was able to find a few on spoke jacks.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/822076/822467.htmlhttp://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/822076/920800.jpg

Most posts that I have made seem to be inaccessible. The new software has eliminated the need to resize photos by the expediency of no longer posting them on the MTFCA website. This is a band-width and money saving tactic. The result is that most people who had augmented their posts with photos no longer do so.

I know some folks will hint that I don't know anything about this, but back before the first massive website/forum shake up I was a MTFCA volunteer helping Gus Stangland manage the forum and photos. At one point I changed the software settings to allow members to post photos. This became a huge deal allowing much easier exchange of information. I had feared inappropriate images might appear, but to my knowledge that has never happend. Back then you had to post photos on the web with a hosting service or on your own web space. Essentially we have returned to the exact same thing now.

So since I no longer have a web page to post my photos on I cannot easily put up my photos which would easily show you how to tighten your metal felloe wheel.

Terry Horlick

[DHort]

A woodworking store near me took my old spokes. They used them to make pens for veterans and soldiers. Each pen came with a note letting them know where the wood came from.

[Scottio]

I had a creaking spoke once and my Dad told me to throw it in some water for a day and let it dry out. Not very scientific but it really did work. It wasn’t easy to find a river or creek in the Mojave desert in August so I used my dogs pool but it dried out real fast in 110 degrees and 5% humidity. Worked great.

[Wayne Mims]

About 20 years ago in our book on tinkling tips someone suggested taking linseed oil and turpentine certain percentages then mixing them together and soaking the wheel in it I believe the tip said that the turpentine would connect to the linseed oil and pull it into the wood if someone could find that I would like to see it posted again or I can use it because it Tighten Up real loose wheel for me years ago

[Scott_Conger]

Wayne mims

the mixture is 50/50, and it is BOILED Linseed oil. It is a standard concotion used in woodworking, particularly in the restoration of window sashes and other mouldings which would be cost prohibitive to replicate. The turpentine thins the boiled linseed oil to the point where it will be absorbed more or less into the grain of the wood. It will not swell wood in any real sense, as water will, though the water effect is a temporary effect. IBoiled linseed oil is a great mildew food in humid climates and will nearly guarantee a mildew problem for the rest of the natural life of the wood thus treated. The handy-dandy handyman sites rarely tell you this (I know, you don't live there, but it is fair warning to those living in the south or on the coast). I've done it (water) on wheels and in FL its effect was about 1 week. It does not cure the underlying problem, as once a wheel with steel fello has a spoke or two or twelve, shrink, the tenon through the hole in the fello will beat itself to a smaller diameter and at that point your wheel is a candidata for new spokes. No salve will restore the cellular structure or dimensional integrity to the spokes. A collapsing wheel is an awesome (in the appropriate use of the word) event to watch. Some don't survive the event. To folks fiddling and playing with loose wheels like they're the first to discover some magic elixer...you're not; the best advice is: don't do it...replace the wood.

[TonyB]

Terry, it is still possible to post pictures, you add them as an Attachment and it’s fairly easy. However I have not yet mastered how to predict just where they will appear in the post.

[Scott_Conger]

Tony

they will appear wherever you have last left the cursor in the text of the post...

[TheSaintDiscJockey]

Here's how a previous owner of my 1920 T chose to "fix" the problem of loose spokes on a rear wheel. I opted to have all four rebuilt upon discovering this quite unexpectedly.

[Thorlick]

You can see how often I review old forum pages. I just saw the above message from Tim. Tim is a great guy who just gifted me with the upholstery he removed from his car... Rusty will proudly wear those seat covers...THANKS TIM!!!

Tim requested spoke jack tool photos so I have dug some up.

Spoke Jack in use

I also have a piece of rubber sheet in my tool box I put between the spokes and the jack to protect the spokes.

Tools

spokejack.jpg (32.9 KiB) Viewed 7200 times

I use the hammer and the screwdriver for pushing the shims to place.

Shims made to carry in tool kit for wooden wheel Back in the T's hayday.tightening

shims.JPG (41.66 KiB) Viewed 7200 times

These are shims available in the '20's and '30's. If you find washers thin enough you can easily make your own ... 1" washer with 1/2" hole is ideal. I have also cut them from shim stock. When you are stacking washer shims on all spokes you should think about spoke replacement.

Spokes replaced

1s.jpg (61.23 KiB) Viewed 7193 times

Sorry I took so long in doing this!

TH

[Loftfield]

Did you store your T over the winter in a heated garage? You seem to be on the border of wet and dry Texas, has your weather been hot and dry? When my 1912 T first came to me it had sat over winter in Ohio in a heated garage. Heated air is dry air, wood shrinks. Loose spoke problem was solved by letting the wheels swim overnight in water in a $10 kiddies inflatable swimming pool from Wallyworld. After three years the spokes are now still tight, no movement, clicks, or squeaks. I do not heat my garage over winter. Try this cheap approach first (KISS principle). If it works great, if not then rebuild. Pix of collapsed wheels on T's on the road are not pretty.