MTFCA Forum

Greetings All,

My name is John Stokes, and I am from New Zealand. I had been a frequent contributor to this forum during the period I was researching for my book, Ford in New Zealand. The assistance I received from through this forum was invaluable and I shall never forget it.

I have produced a second book. The first one, "Putting the Car Before the Horse", covered up to the time the Ford Motor Company was established here in 1936 (prior to that, Ford was represented here, very successfully, by The Colonial Motor Company). So, the first book dived deeply into the earlier years, then the second book, "Driving Ahead", covered the years from 1936 to the end of the assembly industry here (1996) and up to the millennium. If anyone wishes, I set up a website to help sell the second book - it has become more of a Ford history site, focusing on NZ and a little of Australia. If you want to have a look, see www.fordnewzealand.co.nz

I still keep in touch with Ford people here and elsewhere, and I have closely followed the Australian industry. It has been fascinating to follow how the industry has evolved recently - but let's not go there!

The reason for this post is that I have recently heard the first 2,500 examples referred to as the "pre-production Model T". Apparently this term originated in the US. In spite of studying the Model T history closely, I've never heard that term before (with the exception of any T built before Henry gave the ok to start production, on 27 September 1908). I've heard them loosely referred to as the "water pump cars" - but "pre-production" suggests the first 2,500 Model T's were experimental. But that is NOT how Henry thought!

Is anyone able to throw any light on this please?

Many thanks in advance - John

PS - is Hap Tucker still amongst us? And Trent Boggess? (I do know Bruce McCalley passed away - that happened during my research period.)

Do you still have Bob Trevan's contact details?, he seems to know something about your topic.

Thanks Kerry.
Yes, I am still in touch with Bob.
But he and I both know that neither of us can answer the question.
If the first 2,500 Ts are referred to as pre-production, that term will be global.
John

Bob Trevan is the first one I ever heard use the term for the first 2500 cars.i think the term pre production refers to the cars built before 10-1-1908.

This is the first time I've seen that term applied to the first 2500 cars. My personal view is that I disagree with that notion.

Just another unofficial and mis-applied term used by certain hobbyists.

It's similar to folks that that call their 1928 Model A a "1928 Model AR" or call their 1965 Mustang a "1964 1/2 Mustang" even though Ford Motor Company never referred to those vehicles as such.

Just because the car was built in 1908 doesn't mean it's pre-production, it's still a 1909 model.

Indeed - the model year (then the same as Ford's fiscal year) began 1 October, I believe.

All about semantics.

Any healthy society requires effective communication. Effective communication requires some degree of commonality in language. Language in order to be effective, words must have MEANING! And the meaning of words needs to be somewhat stable, and consistent.
Ironically, or otherwise, language, or words, must also evolve over time in order to fit changing needs of society. Societal needs also vary across distances, hence colloquialisms which gives various words different meanings in different places. It also explains to a small extent how all English speaking countries are nations separated by a common language.

The question at hand, is a tough one. While in the truest sense, the first 2500 model T Fords are not "preproduction" (or "pre-production") models? They could in a very real sense be considered as such.

Sometimes people just need to be clear about what they are trying to say. Don't use three words when ten are needed. The entire "1909" model T "year" is a confusing division of variations. The first first almost 1000 were "two lever/two pedal" cars (which by the way had a water pump!). The next almost 1500 cars had the typical single lever and three pedals, but still had the water pump and very rare early block and other unique pieces (hence are often called "water pump cars?)!!
Before June of 1909, nearly all touring cars were painted red. After June of 1909, nearly all touring cars were painted dark green. For only a short while, touring cars could be either color. People go nuts arguing over how late in 1909 should be called a "1909". When DOES a model T become a 1910???? Them going nuts drives me nuts!
Maybe people just need to call such cars by month and year, or other specific detail. If someone is proud of their model T having been built in November of 1909? Call it a "November 1909"!

The model T throughout its almost eighteen years is full of such complicated transitions. Not just 1909. 1912 was full of transitions, the change from 1914 to 1915 lasted eight months (count them!). Hobbyists have been fighting over what a 1923 coupe is for three quarters of a century! (How crazy can we be?) I used to have a 1924 model T coupe (I loved that car, wish I still had it). To this day I still often refer to it as my "April 1924 coupe". Nobody had to wonder if my car was actually a 1923 or a 1925.

Good words Wayne - thank you.

In our neck of the woods, down here, down under in the auto world, some unique terms have evolved. Probably the best-known model identifying term is "Single Spinner" and "Twin Spinner". You and most Americans will have no idea what I'm referring to, and that's ok. A "Single Spinner" is a 1949-50 Ford V8 - the spinner refers to the sole "propellor spinner" in the grille (which was replaceable by a driving light!). Up there, that car is a "Fortyniner" - and "Fortyniner" was a term even the Ford Motor Company used and promoted. A "Twin Spinner" is the "Single Spinner" facelifted with its two propellor spinners! The "Spinner" titles were never used by Ford.

So yes, some unique terms have evolved. And that's ok. But we need to recognise them as such.

My concern is the use of the moniker "pre-production" title is as though that is, or was, a recognised term for the first 2,500 examples. It seems not.

Thanks - John

PS it if had been, I'd have thrown away all my Henry Ford books and expunged from my memory banks (which are, I can assure you, very very small!) everything I have come to understand about what made the man tick! Pre-production? "No way!" he would've said... "This is it!".

Very true, John, very true.

Or, perhaps, I should simply say "Quite."

Linguistics is a fascinating subject!

And, thank you for your kind words.