How do you tell the difference between a late 11 and early 12

[Colin Mavins]

I have seen in the past someone will post a picture of a 1911 T or an early 12 and someone will identify it as 11 or 12 but I can see any difference how can I tell the difference between a late 11 touring and early 12 touring by looking at a picture.Cheers From Winnipeg.

[fbergski]

Here's my May 10th 1911 build date touring.

[Wayne Sheldon]

This I think is one of those many Ford T questions for which there is no simple absolute answer. Between four different calendars, and Henry was continuously making changes, not necessary on any of those calendars, many changes it is difficult to attribute to a specific model year change.
Basically, the primary difference between a late 1911, and an early 1912 for the touring cars, is the '12 should have the "removable" fore-doors (and driver's side non door), while the '11 generally should not. The Mother-in-law or business roadsters did not change much in obvious ways, however, I think construction of the bodies did change significantly. I do not know just when those changes were made however. The so-called "open" roadster, and torpedo roadsters (both had the larger gasoline tank behind the seat) for 1911 were unique, with the longer hood, curved fenders, and a dozen special pieces on them. For 1912, the unique open roadster was discontinued, while the torpedo was changed quite a lot to use more standard Ford parts, although it was the only body to retain the larger gasoline tank behind the seat. The front fenders, running boards, and hood now were like all other T models, while the rear fenders were shared with only the MIL roadster.
The early '12s used the same two piece firewall with the windshield spacer, that the 1911 used. That change to the one piece firewall was made about December 1911. So early '12 models were like the '11s in that way. The addition of the fore-"doors" also required a slight change in the horn mounting and tube routing. It is believed also that the very late '11 model year tourings MAY have had the fore-doors from Ford. To add confusion to that issue, several after-market suppliers offered add-on fore-door kits for Ford touring cars and roadsters. Such add-on doors were offered even before the model T was introduced. I once saw an old era photo of one of the NRS series cars with added doors.

Headlamps and sidelamps changed makers and models almost constantly. I do not know which ones were used when. The factory was usually using two or more models of lamps at any given time. Different lamp models may disappear for awhile and then come back again also. So for those? I am no help whatsoever.

[CudaMan]

There are some extensive articles on the features of various year Model Ts on Royce's site. You need to log in as a member of the site to access them.

https://modeltfordfix.com/forum/viewtop ... f=11&t=583

[Colin Mavins]

Hello Yes I have been to Royce's site and there is no clear answer I just thought I would ask . I know the changes but you will not see that in a photo. I do thank you for the effort ,there are 2 1910 and my 1912 here in Winnipeg but I have never seen an 11 and early 12 together. Cheers from Winnipeg

[KWTownsend]

Colin-
Wayne pretty much nailed it, as he always does.

I have studied and documented late 1911 and early 1912 cars for years, focusing primarily of touring cars. I have a dog in the fight because I have a touring car, 85XXX with a Beaudette body that has fore-doors. There was quite a lot of variation and evolution during this era. Different body manufactures produced bodies that had slight variations. Combine that with the change to having all cars equipped with top and headlamps, (taller one-piece dash) and the fact the Ford did not waste any parts, I have seen lots of variations Unfortunately there are no production records from this era, but there are some shipping records. I have seen cars with step-side bodies without fore-doors, step-side bodies with fore-doors, step side bodies with one-piece dash without fore-doors, step-side bodies with one-piece dash with straight-top fore-doors, then finally the slab-side "1912" body, ALL of which came with fore-doors. My personal records show cars from s/n 82XXX have fore-doors, and a slab side 1912 s/n 87XXX. However, shipping records show a number of cars in the 87XXX range that were shipped around Feb - March, 1912. I also know of a step-side Beaudette body fore-door car with a s/n 101XXX. So, you see, there was a lot of variation.

I do not know the production date of my car. It could be as early as September, 1911, but is likely October -November, 1911. My car may be a "1912 fiscal" year car, however when it was sold it was licensed as a 1911, and was so until the original owner died in 1935. I have the registration from 1935. Some folks say my car is a 1912, but is has been called 1911 for the past 107 years.

I'm always happy to share information with other late 1911/early 1912 owners.

: ^ )

Keith

[otrcman]

Wayne and Keith have pretty much demonstrated that there really isn't any specific configuration that you could call a "definitive '11" or a "definitive '12". And I don't believe further research will ever reveal any sharper definition of models. Perhaps an explanation of why there is no line in the sand is in order:

In a manufacturing operation, drawings are made of each individual part. This is done so that all shop operations, both in-house and vendor produced, will be made to consistent dimensions and of consistent quality materials. That way all the surrounding parts fit together and perform as the designers intended. Makes sense ? Sure, absolutely basic.

OK, now we move on to the next step. When a change needs to be made to the part, a new drawing is issued, the "effective date" is entered on the drawing, and there will be some notation on the disposition of preceeding parts. The drawing number, usually the same as the part number, will be changed for the new drawing. Some words will show on the face of the new drawing saying, "Use all preceeding parts to exhaust supply." Or maybe, "All preceeding parts are obsolete as of Dec. XX, 19xx and will be discarded from inventory." Still make sense ? Good.

Now for the subtle part. How does the vehicle assembly department know when parts become obsolete and what do they do with the obsolete parts ? Answer: A new assembly drawing is issued to the department that will be making the assembly. If it's the engine assembly department, whey will receive a new assembly drawing which will be nothing more than a long list of applicable part numbers. There will be an "effectivity date" for the new engine assembly drawing.

At the top of the heap is a full assembly drawing, often called the "Top Drawing". That drawing doesn't show how to make any parts or how to put them together; it's just a big long list of the most current sub assembly drawings. And it, too, will have an effectivity date. A "Parts Manual" will be issued to reflect all correct part numbers for a specific model auto, along with notations of acceptable substitute parts.

So, what does an individual mechanic do to find out what what part to order when repairing an in-service vehicle ? He goes to the Parts Manual for his particular year vehicle and finds the correct number to install.

This system is commonly called "configuration management" or "configuration control" today.

But evidently Ford didn't use such a sophisticated and labor intensive system in the Model T era. They just tried to make all the later parts downward compatible. That way the mechanic could go the the parts bin and pick out the latest part, and it would be designed to be an acceptable substitute for the old part. A whole different philosophy from what is done today. But where this downward compatibility concept falls apart is when the new model part just won't work on the older vehicle. That's where we begin to see notes telling the mechanic that he needs to provide the name of the vendor (Heinze, Kingston, Jacobson-Brandow, for instance) to make sure he gets the right replacement part. Now the "all years compatible" concept begins to fall apart.

I imagine that if Ford had foreseen the amazing quantity of Model T's that would eventually be built, the many changes along the way, and the many different vendors, they might have considered the more sophisticated and more costly configuration management system.
So what are we left with today ? An amazing automobile that was born not only at the dawn of the mechanical age, but with all the rudimentary manufacturing practices and controls that were customary at that time. If we could go to the Ford archives and find a Top Drawing for each year and model, we could say with great precision how you tell a late '11 from an early '12.

In summary, why can't we pick a date and say, "This is the first day of the 1912 Model T" ? Because Ford at that time didn't control their configuration in the same way that it was done today. They very cleverly used parts interchangeability and downward compatibility to maximize the economy of manufacture.

Sorry for the long winded reply. It's a complex subject.

[KWTownsend]

One of the other things I did not mention is in my personal database I have listings on car serial numbers, ID (dash tag) numbers, and body makes with their body numbers. There is absolutely no linear correlation to the numbering sequences. I know of a car s/n 93XXX with a Beaudette Body 15XXX without fore-doors and a car s/n 86XXX with a Beaudette body 22XXX with fore-doors. I was taking with Trent Boggess about it one day and told him that it seemed as chassis numbers were generally linear, that is first-in first-out inventory, but the bodies were first-in-last-out. Trent confirmed with me that during that era of production the body inventory room indeed had only one door. So the inventory room would accept deliveries and when a body was needed for production they would get the body closest to the door. Consequently we have an example of a very late car paired with a very early body.

Here is an interesting image from a Ford publication showing a step-side body with straight-top fore-doors:

If anyone here has a late 1911 or early 1912, please contact me.

: ^ )