MTFCA Forum

Got the opportunity to buy back my great grandfathers old 1926 touring in May last year. It's a complete restoration object, dad still says "had you not told me I still could not tell if it had been a car or a plane wreck". I'm a complete novice at this kind of project so I have a workshop to do the welding and getting the body assembled and once a time in the future the paint job. Would have been cheaper to buy a working car but then I would not have the history as I have found up to now, this is still work in progress. The mechanical things and assembly of engine I want to take on myself.
I think I have traced all previous owners and according to my time line my great grandfather was the fourth owner (1935-1972) and I'm now the seventh owner (2018-). The car went out of traffic december 31, 1957 and sold to a man in 1972 that was supposed to restore it. In 2010 that man died and an Model T enthusiast bought the parts to save it from ending up as scrap.
The enging block and the frame has the same number, 13.509.103, is it possible to trace the day of production of engine and assembly of the car?
Sadly there have been some water inside the water channel at the top of the block that has corroded the metal. That crack I found on the outside of the block turned out to be just thin metal when a specialist tried to weld the crack. It is possible that I post a new topic on that matter later, would like the original block but not at any cost.
As of who sold the car my best lead as of yet is a Norwegian mechanical/steel workshop in Namsos that I am told at least before the first World War bought cars in wooden crates and assembled the cars in that workshop. Anyone know if its possible to trace buyers from any records in the USA?
Grateful for any answers.

Vidar

What a great story! Welcome, and I wish you the very best. You will receive more advice and comments than you might be able to imagine, so soak it all in while you can!

That's awesome !!
Hopefully you'll get some pictures of the resurrection for us.

We are glad to have you along. It sounds like a great project with a wealth of history.
Enjoy it.
Rich

Welcome Vidar - I've been to Trondhiem...beautiful city, wonderful country.

Your car dates to April of 1926. Someone with better references might be able to pin it down more closely. Unfortunately, most of the records for Model T's built after 1911 were lost in a fire many years ago.

You should be able to achieve your goal of restoring the car and people on this forum will help you as much as they can. Probably your biggest problem will be finding some of the parts you need. They are plentiful in the USA but I don't know the situation in Europe. Perhaps some of the other European forum members can help you in that regard.

Be sure to post some photos of your progress.

lykke til

Tim

Tuckett Brothers in England would be a good starting point for parts. www.modeltford.co.uk

Thanks guys

I have a lot of stories about the car so I am thinking of starting a blog or it's own Facebook page if that's allowed.

I found out that it will be a car show in the region where my great grandfather lived and contacted them to hear if they was interested in displaying the project. They were thrilled about the history of the car so in june 22 and 23 2019 it will be displayed at the show as a project.
I am currently writing down a timeline for the car and my relatives in direct line.

As for body parts there is a story of it's own for that.

The picture shows the parts placed out on the floor of the workshop boot floor that I and my dad is letting. I placed the parts as I thought they were connected.

As for the parts.
My dad has a cabin in Åre, Sweden. It's 180 km and a two and a half hour drive from Trondheim and in Summer 2017 I was walking around among the permanent housing area on the other side of the main road E14 when I saw an old car on a car-trailer. As a complete novice I hadn't a clue what car this was so I took a photo, attached, and showed it to my dad that bursts out that this is a T-Ford. In Norway and Sweden we call them T-Ford and A-Ford.
A few weeks later I walked in the same area and when passing the same house i saw a couple covering an another car than I saw earlier in the parking space in front of the house. I started talking and found out that they own 7 Model T's in total! I told them I was thinking about buying back my great grandfathers car back, the man starts smiling an tells me "buy it!"
After that I have been at several visits to them that rarely lasts shorter than 3-4 hours.
Last summer I was contacted by this man saying that he got a call from someone who wanted to sell off all of his Model T parts. Turned out this was all 1926 touring parts and a project car that has been under restoration since 1974.
After summer I bought the lot and ended up with a project car, see photo, 1 body that was complete but rusty, 1 body that was cut i three parts and rusty. I have so many front axles that I don't care, several steering columns, 2 engine blocks, lot of wheels both wood and steel.
I haven't touched that project car but the workshop are using the best parts of the lot for my body.

Here is a few photos of my car from last weekend when I visited the workshop.

Note that the red Volvo 142 is my dad's car bought from my great grandfathers youngest son and he has driven my Model T.

kerry wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:40 pm

Tuckett Brothers in England would be a good starting point for parts. www.modeltford.co.uk

I have come across them before. Maybe I should contact them, I do need a new rear seat toe panel og rear center panel.
I saw they was included in one episode of Channel 4's Find It, Fix It, Flog It (S01, E01)

My greatest concern is parts from Snyders, been reckommended them for parts. The prices is not a problem but have to add up 80-90 % of subtotal in shipment costs is quite absurd.

Oldav8tor wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:31 pm

Welcome Vidar - I've been to Trondhiem...beautiful city, wonderful country.

Your car dates to April of 1926. Someone with better references might be able to pin it down more closely. Unfortunately, most of the records for Model T's built after 1911 were lost in a fire many years ago.

You should be able to achieve your goal of restoring the car and people on this forum will help you as much as they can. Probably your biggest problem will be finding some of the parts you need. They are plentiful in the USA but I don't know the situation in Europe. Perhaps some of the other European forum members can help you in that regard.

Be sure to post some photos of your progress.

lykke til

Tim

Cool
I found the month April too, and a comment that there is record of day to day production of engines somwhere. Anyone knows how long it went from engine production to assembly of the car?

What a great story. It's so wonderful that you have your great grandfather's T.

I'll be following along.

My engine was cast on September 18th and assembled on September 23rd. Some of the members have access to that info and hopefully they will read your post.

Hei Vidar!
In regards to the assembly date of your T, your car was probably assembled in Copenhagen. Norway fell under the distribution district for cars built there. Chances are there could be weeks, if not months, between the engine build date and the assembly of the vehicle. My car, 12987766, had the engine built in late December 1925, but the car was first registered in Oslo in May 1926 with license A 966. My assumption is that my engine was built in the US and the car assembled in Denmark, but I have no proof of either. On the front of the radiator it says MADE IN U.S.A. I bought my T in 1957, and then it was registered as C 5500.
I have a question for you. You might know, since you obviously mess around with cars a lot. Is it possible to get issued a "Vognkort Del 2", just to update the ownership, without getting "Del 1", as the car is in storage and is not going to be on the road. It would not pass inspection in its present state anyway. I stopped by "Trafikkstasjon" in Trondheim as I was passing through last year, and asked that question. The lady behind the counter said no. I had to bring the car in. May be it is wishful thinking on my part, but I suspect the person I talked to, was mistaken. Why should I have to bring a car in, when it is not going on the road?
Lykke til med T-Forden!
Roar

I love to see our Scandinavian and European brothers working on project cars! Very cool!
Plus it's your Grandfather's car!
Vidar, we want more photos as the car progresses.

Roar_Sand wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:04 pm

Hei Vidar!
In regards to the assembly date of your T, your car was probably assembled in Copenhagen. Norway fell under the distribution district for cars built there. Chances are there could be weeks, if not months, between the engine build date and the assembly of the vehicle. My car, 12987766, had the engine built in late December 1925, but the car was first registered in Oslo in May 1926 with license A 966. My assumption is that my engine was built in the US and the car assembled in Denmark, but I have no proof of either. On the front of the radiator it says MADE IN U.S.A. I bought my T in 1957, and then it was registered as C 5500.
I have a question for you. You might know, since you obviously mess around with cars a lot. Is it possible to get issued a "Vognkort Del 2", just to update the ownership, without getting "Del 1", as the car is in storage and is not going to be on the road. It would not pass inspection in its present state anyway. I stopped by "Trafikkstasjon" in Trondheim as I was passing through last year, and asked that question. The lady behind the counter said no. I had to bring the car in. May be it is wishful thinking on my part, but I suspect the person I talked to, was mistaken. Why should I have to bring a car in, when it is not going on the road?
Lykke til med T-Forden!
Roar

Hei Roar, sorry for the late reply.

I have found out that my engine was cast in April 1926 based on the engine number and registered on the road in Norway 12th of August 1926. I have also heard from one man in Skogn north of Trondheim that cars assembled in Copenhagen had a difference in the triangular shape at the front axle ends. Cars in USA have the trangular shape upwards and cars assemled in Copenhagen the shape is downwards. This must be to get the front lower i reckon?
As I've been told there was a company in Namsos buying cars in crates and assembled them before WWI, that's my closest lead yet. Do you know if there are any records from Copenhagen and what the company name was?

As for your car, when did you turn in the licence plates? Was it before the 1970's your car is not in the data register and they will need to find it manually in the physical archive at the station it was last registered. You have to show the car at the Trafikkstasjon anyway to get new licence plates. You don't have to update the registration certificate as long as you have the original one or have other original documents to prove your ownership against the physical archive at the time of registration. That is my assumption, I'm not an expert. Vegvesen.no states that registered (in traffic) cars with Vognkort issued before 1st of June 2004 gets the new two part registration certificate when sold to a new owner.

This is what I did. I sent an email to Trondheim Trafikkstasjon and told them that I was thinking about buying back my great grand fathers old car and asked if they had any documents and told them which Trafikkstasjon most likley had documents (Namsos was the closest to my grand fathers location). This yielded 4 documents that have I think identified all previous owners before my great grand father bought the car. When I bought the car the previous owner and I signed a paper version of the authorities change of ownership.
Before I started the restoration I made an appointment at Trondheim Trafikkstasjon showing the frame and the original engine block and a copy of the documents I got earlier. Better safe than sorry. My car is now in the system with the licence plate V-6289 as when my great grand father used the car. The new documents states that I have to show tha car at Trafikkstasjon when finished and I can get my licence plates.

Steve Jelf wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:39 pm

I may have missed it somewhere in this long discussion, but the engine assembly date is Monday, April 12, 1926

Hello Steve.

Thank you for your reply. That's interesting, where do these dates come from?

Steve Jelf wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:00 pm

The serial number list is in Bruce McCalley's Model T Encyclopedia. Part of the Encyclopedia is on the MTFCA website, much abridged.
It's available in book form, but the disk version is better because of all the extra information it contains.


Details are here: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG80.html

Brilliant. Thank you Jeff.

Ordered lots of parts at Snyders last Sunday, got a 8 page invoice in my inbox and 4 parcels for delivery on Wednesday. Shipment costs for normal parts wasn't bad just 11% added, and then 25% VAT thats inevitable when ordering. I'll have to look elsewhere for seat springs, thats the buggers that made shipment costs unbearable when checking prices earlier.

Now the fun will start, restoring axles will be the first task.

Here is a photo of the farm where my grand mother was born, must be in the 50's (most likely) or 60's I reckon. The Model T used to be parked in the farmyard in front of the red "Eldhuset" (washhouse) to the right with the headlight towards you looking at the photo. When the car went out of use 30th of December 1957 it was parked in the outbuilding in the back to the left. This outbuilding and the outbuilding in front of it was demolished some time in the late 60's I reckon and then the car was parked outside. The kids used the car as a playground before the car was sold 21st of April 1972.

Hei Vidar!
Jeg leverte inn skiltene i 1964, da jeg dro til USA for å finne en jobb. Jeg har det gamle vognkortet, men det er i min første kones navn. Jeg har også en signert salgsmelding fra henne til meg. Det gjør eierforholdet litt rotete, så det er derfor jeg er interessert i å få det nye vognkort "Del 2" i mitt navn. Det kommer ikke på tale å få "Del 1", da bilen ikke er kjørbar. Da jeg har fyllt 80, ville det vært fint å ha "Del 2", slik at det blir greiere for en eventuell overtager i fremtiden. Jeg syns at det ikke skulle være nødvendig å "vise" bilen, når den ikke skal på veien.
Fint bilde av gården! Typisk langstrakt trøndervåningshus.

a vidar!
I delivered the signs in 1964, when I went to the United States to find a job. I have the old cart card, but it's in my first wife's name. I also have a signed sales message from her to me. That makes the ownership a bit messy, so that's why I'm interested in getting the new cart card "Part 2" in my name. It is not going to get "Part 1", as the car is not drivable. When I turned 80, it would be nice to have "Part 2", so it will be easier for a possible takeover in the future. I think it should not be necessary to "show" the car when it is not going on the road.
Nice picture of the farm! Typical elongated tree house

Not a bad translation, but not 100% either.

Roar_Sand wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:33 pm

Not a bad translation, but not 100% either.

Appears to have been done in Google Translate, which varies in my experience from very close all the way to incomprehensible (at least when the language in question is Dutch).

My question to Vidar concerns how to get an up to date title to my car. Norway used to only issue one document, which served the purpose of title and registration. Now they do issue two pieces of paper, Part 1 to keep in your car to serve as registration. The other, Part2, serves as title, not to be kept in the car. If you take the car off the road and quit carrying insurance, you are supposed to turn the license plates in to the police. If the police sees a vehicle without insurance, they'll literally cut the plates off the car right then and there. When insurance is cancelled, or not renewed on time, the insurance companies will immediately inform the police. If posting in a foreign language is a No, No, on this forum, I apologize!

Roar_Sand wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:07 pm

If posting in a foreign language is a No, No, on this forum, I apologize!

Roar, I don't think there is a rule. If I see a post from someone in NL, I will often post a brief reply in Dutch. It's a judgment call. If I think it might be interesting for everyone, I will also "subtitle" my post in English. I worked with a Norwegian colleague when I was living in Amsterdam. The only Norwegian I learned was (1) øl, (2) dra til helvete and (3) Ja vi elsker dette landet. Not very useful in a conversation.

I think th "øl" part could be very useful.

Roar_Sand wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:01 pm

Hei Vidar!
Jeg leverte inn skiltene i 1964, da jeg dro til USA for å finne en jobb. Jeg har det gamle vognkortet, men det er i min første kones navn. Jeg har også en signert salgsmelding fra henne til meg. Det gjør eierforholdet litt rotete, så det er derfor jeg er interessert i å få det nye vognkort "Del 2" i mitt navn. Det kommer ikke på tale å få "Del 1", da bilen ikke er kjørbar. Da jeg har fyllt 80, ville det vært fint å ha "Del 2", slik at det blir greiere for en eventuell overtager i fremtiden. Jeg syns at det ikke skulle være nødvendig å "vise" bilen, når den ikke skal på veien.
Fint bilde av gården! Typisk langstrakt trøndervåningshus.

Hei Roar

I'll reply in english for our english speaking friends here.

The transfer card "Salgsmelding" you signed, was it an official one issued by Statens Vegvesen? Did you send it to Statens Vegvesen? But I think as long as you have a signed contract it's not a messy ownership, but then again I'm not a norwegian bureaucrat.

Unfortunately you can't get just part 2 "Del 2". Part 1 and 2 are only issued together by Statens Vegvesen when an already registered car is changing ownership. I bought back my dad's old VW Transporter T3, it has been unregistered since 2006. Salgsmelding have been signed digitaly on the internet but I won't get the 2 part certificates until after the car has been showed to Statens Vegsvesen (because I'm gonna reregister it as a 8-seater, not a camper as today) and the car haved passed the MOT's (EU-kontroll). Only then I can get my license plates and 2 part certificate.

This might sound a bit harsh but if you die, your decendants need to to sign an official transfer card "Salgsmelding" issued by Statens Vegvesen and a copy of your death certificate has to be provided and sent to Statens Vegvesen. Then the paper work should be in order but I cannot guarantee it, might be something I've missed.

Roar_Sand wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:07 pm

My question to Vidar concerns how to get an up to date title to my car. Norway used to only issue one document, which served the purpose of title and registration. Now they do issue two pieces of paper, Part 1 to keep in your car to serve as registration. The other, Part2, serves as title, not to be kept in the car. If you take the car off the road and quit carrying insurance, you are supposed to turn the license plates in to the police. If the police sees a vehicle without insurance, they'll literally cut the plates off the car right then and there. When insurance is cancelled, or not renewed on time, the insurance companies will immediately inform the police. If posting in a foreign language is a No, No, on this forum, I apologize!

The system is a bit more intertwined than that today. From 2018 it is the insurance companies that call in the road tax on the behalf of the government alongside the insurance fee. Now you only pay road tax and insurance as long as the car is registered. You still have to turn in the licence plates, but to Statens Vegvesen (Norwegian road authorities), not the police. The insurance companies cancel your insurance instantly when your licence plates is registered as turned in, usually within a day.
Both the police and the road authorities have the possibility take your licence plates if the car is missing insurance, haven't passed the MOT or have some other irregularities.

Hei Vidar!
Thanks for the update! I just remember how it was in the "good old days", as I have not lived in Norway since 1962. Now I just visit. My daughter moved from Umeå, Sweden to Smøla, Norway last year, so I'll be visiting her again this year. I will also try to make it to the 60 year reunion for my officer training class (Befalskolen) for the Field Artillery at Kongsvinger in September.
I just bought a NAF (Norwegian Automobile Club) membership for my daughter for her birthday. Always good to have!
Roar

Roar_Sand wrote: ↑

Sat Mar 02, 2019 3:12 pm

Hei Vidar!
Thanks for the update! I just remember how it was in the "good old days", as I have not lived in Norway since 1962. Now I just visit. My daughter moved from Umeå, Sweden to Smøla, Norway last year, so I'll be visiting her again this year. I will also try to make it to the 60 year reunion for my officer training class (Befalskolen) for the Field Artillery at Kongsvinger in September.
I just bought a NAF (Norwegian Automobile Club) membership for my daughter for her birthday. Always good to have!
Roar

You're welcome
My advice would be to concider to transfer the car over to your daughter or other descendants with a registered adress (Folkeregistrert) in Norway, then it should not be a problem if the car would be sold in the future or some grand kids would like to take on your project, I suppose it is since you mentioned it not driveable?

Oh, forgot to ask. What year and body is your car? Do you have a picture of it?

Hei Vidar!
Right now it escapes me how to post pictures, but I did post in another thread. Look in the thread titled "How long have you owned your old iron".
My car is a 1926 Touring.
Roar

Roar_Sand wrote: ↑

Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:51 pm

Hei Vidar!
Right now it escapes me how to post pictures, but I did post in another thread. Look in the thread titled "How long have you owned your old iron".
My car is a 1926 Touring.
Roar

That's ok, same as mine then.

After my '26 body was postponed slightly by the workshop due to other projects, it is now full ahead again. The goal is to have the whole body temprarily assembled but all bodyparts, fenders, windshield frame, running boards etc. to have been sandblasted and black epoxy coated to the fair "Trøndermarkedet" 16th of June and to the car show "Motormessa" 22nd of June.

Because of missing title of the green Swedish car I ended up to take the rear center body panel and the rear wheel arches and sills from that car to use them on my car. I also took the windshield frame from this car and the rear fenders too. The steering column probably also ends up in my car.

It has come a long way from when I brought the parts to the workshop. Here we have placed the parts as we assumed they would be.
After I got the chance to buy the green car and all the other bodies we decided to take the best parts for my car. The plan was to leave the green car untouched but as the other bodies was bad I ended up taking the few missing parts to get the project going.
The project started in September/October 2018 I reckon.

Time for an update at last.

Was at the car show Motormessa in Rørvik the weekend 21nd to 23rd of June. It was an success. Got a lot of good feedback and people thought it was a cool project. Talked to several people that thought that the crack in the original engine block was possible to fix somehow, just got to find the right person to help me.

Assembled the body and fenders temporarily for the show and made a timeline and a short story to display.

When I saw the large hump panel in the rear underseat panel, I wondered what the story was. Then the exaggerated arch in the rear frame cross member showed up in later photos and I can see why. That arch appears way taller than anything I have seen on our Canadian sourced cars. What do you fellows see?

Allan from down under.

Allan

Noted that high arch in the rear crossmember, remember reading that many T's mfg. overseas, like England for the Improved Car, got lower chassis stance.
Must be same in the Sweden Ford plant, lower chassis. You can see that arch in his photo, compared to the USA made '26 frame. That would require that large pan under the rear seat.

And found this saved file of photo from Sweden assembly plant, you can see the taller rear crossmember, this is one of a series of original photos on eBay a while back.

As we've found out by now is that northern European cars sits lower on 1926-27 models than American models. We have been talking to a Swedish oracle that told us that because the body sits lower the rear fenders are different and hence the rear quarter panel must be different and the rear doors.
He also could tell us that for a northern European Model T the 1926-27 year models is the hardest to find body parts with the 4 door touring being the absolute worst. We were told that we can't buy body part from Mac's or Lang's, they won't fit.

We were told that it is possible to buy upholstery and interior door panels from America but it requires some fitting, but we should have a template at hand.

As an example: I took the right front door from the green car and put it in my car. The body frame is not welded together yet and we can't figure out why it wont fit. After some thinking and measurements we found that the green front door are 5 millimeters longer than the original door om my car, the center panel was 5 millimeters shorter than my car.

DanTreace - I can't see the pictures you uploaded, can you upload them again?
And you say it was an Swedish plant? I haven't heard about that one, do you know it's whereabouts?

I've been told that the Norwegian cars most likely came from the plant in Copenhagen, Denmark. May it be that's why there is a difference between the doors? The green car is Swedish.

kerry wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:40 pm

Tuckett Brothers in England would be a good starting point for parts. www.modeltford.co.uk

I believe "https://www.veterandele.dk" in Denmark may be even better as they are closer (and who knows how cumbersome dealing with UK may be if Brexit? Even though Norway is not in EU they are very closely related).

Veterandele.dk have the most common T-parts on stock (as authorised MAC and Snyder dealer).

The UK manufactured Model T's from 1925 and onwards where 3" lower than the US siblings. That was obtained by geometry in the frontaxle and also in the frame. US adopted some, but not all of these changes in the 26-27 improved Ford.

There is a book published by the UK Model T Register that tells the whole story.

In Denmark a 1930 Spare Part catalog reveals, the in 1925 the UK manufactured Tourings where assembled and sold here as the special frameparts are listed for 1925 only. Most likely the same applies for the cars delivered to Norway. If yours are a low UK chassis, the question might be if it is indeed a 1925 Model sold and titled in early 1926.

(In danish): Du er velkommen til at kontakte mig hvis du har brug for hjælp!

Vidar,
I was under the impression that only Model a was assembled in Sweden; not ModelT.

Any evidence that Ts built in Denmark or Sweden perhaps had linoleum covered wooden running boards?