ISO 1921 Kerosene tail light bracket.

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Chris Haynes
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ISO 1921 Kerosene tail light bracket.

Post by Chris Haynes » Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:04 pm

I have found a kerosene tail light for my 1921 Non-electric Runabout. I am now looking for the mounting bracket. I would like to see a picture of one so I know what I am looking for.
TIA

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Rich Eagle
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Re: ISO 1921 Kerosene tail light bracket.

Post by Rich Eagle » Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:21 pm

I believe after 1919 they were mounted on the spare tire mount. Prior to that the 2-blot bracket was used.
SpareMnt.jpg
TliteBrkt.jpg
When did I do that?


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Re: ISO 1921 Kerosene tail light bracket.

Post by Erik Johnson » Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:34 pm

A non-starter/generator 1921 roadster with non-demountable wheels would not have a spare tire bracket. The lamp would utilize the gray bracket Rich posted above which is attached to the deck - see photo of my 1917 roadster below.
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lamp bracket.jpg


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Re: ISO 1921 Kerosene tail light bracket.

Post by Chris Haynes » Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:07 am

Does anybody have one they could part company with?

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Re: ISO 1921 Kerosene tail light bracket.

Post by Rich Eagle » Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:01 am

Several model T part vendors have reproductions for sale in the $30 to $40 range.
When did I do that?


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Re: ISO 1921 Kerosene tail light bracket.

Post by FATMAN » Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:19 am

we make the and have them in stock, Bob


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Re: ISO 1921 Kerosene tail light bracket.

Post by Chris Haynes » Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:56 am

I am looking for an original. Rusty and crusty is fine. ;-)


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Re: ISO 1921 Kerosene tail light bracket.

Post by Dan Hatch » Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:19 am

Email me may still have one in the swap meet trailer. Dan

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Re: ISO 1921 Kerosene tail light bracket.

Post by RajoRacer » Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:18 am

I believe by '21, Ford changed over to the pressed steel type not cast - I might have one & will post a photo.

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Re: ISO 1921 Kerosene tail light bracket.

Post by RajoRacer » Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:17 pm

Here's what a pressed steel non-starter Touring bracket looks like.
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pressed steel touring 1.JPG
pressed steel touring 2.JPG


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Re: ISO 1921 Kerosene tail light bracket.

Post by Erik Johnson » Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:13 pm

I learn something new every day.

I wasn't aware that there were pressed steel brackets prior to the change where the light and bracket were re-designed so the light was turned 90 degrees and had a large clear lens and a small red lens. I don't think I've ever seen a pressed steel touring or roadster bracket like shown above.


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Re: ISO 1921 Kerosene tail light bracket.

Post by Chris Haynes » Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:56 pm

RajoRacer wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:17 pm
Here's what a pressed steel non-starter Touring bracket looks like.
Where would the kerosene lamp mount to that type? That mounting is three holes. My car has only two holes for mounting.
Last edited by Chris Haynes on Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: ISO 1921 Kerosene tail light bracket.

Post by Chris Haynes » Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:57 pm

Erik Johnson wrote:
Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:13 pm
I learn something new every day.

I wasn't aware that there were pressed steel brackets prior to the change where the light and bracket were re-designed so the light was turned 90 degrees and had a large clear lens and a small red lens. I don't think I've ever seen a pressed steel touring or roadster bracket like shown above.
Oh oh! When did that change happen?

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Re: ISO 1921 Kerosene tail light bracket.

Post by KWTownsend » Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:16 am

Chris
The bracket for the touring car mounts on the underside of the sill, under the body. The bracket for the runabout, like in the photo Richard posted, mounts on the back of the cross frame on the left side, just below the turtle deck.

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Re: ISO 1921 Kerosene tail light bracket.

Post by RajoRacer » Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:17 pm

Chris - did you ever locate the correct bracket ? If not, I found one.

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Re: ISO 1921 Kerosene tail light bracket.

Post by RajoRacer » Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:19 pm

Here's an original stamped runabout "Ford" script bracket.
Attachments
runabout bracket 1.JPG
runabout bracket 2.JPG
runabout bracket 4.JPG


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Re: ISO 1921 Kerosene tail light bracket.

Post by wayne sheldon » Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:18 pm

Chris H, I hope you are out there and answer for this! That bracket is quite rare as they were used ONLY on runabouts without the demountable spare tire package. Beyond that, most such runabouts got upgraded later and the original brackets thrown away. The three little holes on the car's left of the license plate mounting locate and hold the tail-lamp. The middle one is for the mounting post (which on some electric tail-lamps has a hole for the wire through its center). The two on each side of the center hole are to cradle rivets in the back of the lamp to hold it straight (centered).

The later change mentioned by Erik Johnson was the "Ford O" lamp used I think in 1925 and later non-electric open models. The oil lamp was turned sideways with the large clear lens to light the license plate, while the very small what used to light the license plate was replaced by a red lens as the tail light. There is a rather long story of dirty politics behind that change. Suffice to say, it was Henry's response to a few states trying to make him do something he was going to do in a couple years anyway, but the states demanded "RIGHT NOW".

It is interesting how "rarity", "value", "desirability", past and present all play together. Sometimes in strange ways. The bracket you need is quite rare today. Not a lot of them were used originally, at least not in comparison to the more common lamps and brackets most Ts got. And the brackets became even more rare because so many of them were thrown away half a century ago. But they really aren't worth a huge amount of money, although don't expect one for cheap, there is some demand for them, and I suspect Steve T will be very fair with his price (he usually is). But the fact is, (partially my opinion) not enough people really want to restore their car to that rare correct variation where this bracket is needed. I think it is sad, I would really like to see more Ts restored and/or maintained correctly this way.

The "Ford O" tail-lamp is also fairly rare. They were made in lower numbers than this bracket was (fewer years with lower non-electric optioned cars). The Ford O tail-lamp was a lousy design, the small red lens made them hard to see on dark roads (although I suspect the brightly lit license plate did help some?). Most of them were removed from the cars within a couple years, many of them within months of purchase, and replaced with something better. Some of those were simply replaced with an available older style Ford oil lamp that was turned the more sensible direction! But the still new shiny Ford O lamp was cute, and maybe a use could be found for it. So many (likely thousands) of them were removed from cars and put in the garage or barn someplace. I have seen dozens of them over the years in nearly new-old-stock condition. Still shiny paint with some shopworn scratches in it. I even have one on a shelf myself. I rarely see anyone buying one. And I have seen them offered so cheap that people will buy one once in awhile just to steal the bowl or burner out of it. Supply versus demand at work.

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Re: ISO 1921 Kerosene tail light bracket.

Post by Duey_C » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:00 am

Interesting topic!
Have the cast bracket on my 18 Runabout. Original, far as I can tell. The bolts have been pulled thru the rear cross frame so much they needed a second nut to secure the bracket. It is what it is. :)
Wondering if I have the correct red-lensed Kero tail lamp... ;)
Like the wire Erik!
Have an O on the bench (missing the red lens), awfully quaint/near backwards lamp. Burner intact, by the way...
Quaint is apparently my word of the day.
Just wish this Runabout had been left with the original rust instead of psychOdelic primer & paint from the late 70's/early 80's.
:)
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Re: ISO 1921 Kerosene tail light bracket.

Post by wayne sheldon » Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:22 am

Duey C, Yeah, those cast brackets are much better than the simple steel ones that replaced them. Much stronger as well.They are also correct for an '18. I gather from a couple discussions that Chris H is trying to get his original car back to as correct as he reasonably can. And the simple steel bracket as I understand it would be correct for his car. Frankly, I wouldn't blame anyone for using the earlier cast bracket. I mean, how many people really would know the difference? As I understand it, there were three main variations of the cast bracket, although all in both runabout AND touring car versions. The '15, two piece bolted. The mostly '16/early '17 two piece riveted. And the late '17 through '20ish one piece casting.
I hope he is doing well.


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Re: ISO 1921 Kerosene tail light bracket.

Post by Erik Johnson » Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:30 am

Duey C:

About the bailing wire on the lamp.

Someone thought he would do me a big favor. Without asking, he decided he would bend the tab inside the door that keeps it closed so it would have a tighter fit. He ended up breaking off the tab. I do have a replacement door with the tab intact but I have yet to install it on the lamp.


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Re: ISO 1921 Kerosene tail light bracket.

Post by Original Smith » Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:57 am

A dumb question indeed, but what does ISO stand for?

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Re: ISO 1921 Kerosene tail light bracket.

Post by Chris Instness » Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:13 pm

ISO= In Search Of

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Re: ISO 1921 Kerosene tail light bracket.

Post by RajoRacer » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:03 pm

Didn't you ever watch that program back in the late 70's that Leonard Nimoy hosted, Larry ? New show has the newest "Spock" fella hosting.

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Re: ISO 1921 Kerosene tail light bracket.

Post by Duey_C » Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:53 pm

Erik: What a dip! Sounds like that guy should've had his tab broken off for that "favor". Head, ear, finger, arm etc. :evil:
Hope it wasn't a friend.
I often worry the door will flop open when my eyes aren't facing backward and the flame will go out.
I still like the wire. :)
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Re: ISO 1921 Kerosene tail light bracket.

Post by Chris Haynes » Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:18 pm

My car came with the cast bracket and electric lamp. I am sure it didn't leave the factory that way. For now I am using the cast bracket and oil burning lamp until a correct bracket finds its way to me.

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