Hill Performance, Oil Coloring, and More

[techwiz001]

Hello everyone,
Been continuing progress on the 1926 Model T which has been parked since about 2009. This is the first Model T I have worked with.

Last post was on the old forum, but we had hypothesized that there was gunk in the carburetor (a Holley G), and so we disassembled it, cleaned it, replaced the float and all gaskets, and then reassembled and reinstalled the carburetor.
We also removed the old fuel shutoff and line (a custom-plumbing job that appeared to have deteriorated), and replaced it with a sediment bulb and freshly bent 0.25" OD fuel line.
The transmission has also been calibrated such that the pedals "bottom out" an inch or so from the floorboards, and the rear drum brakes have been adjusted such that they only start to grab after the handle has passed the vertical position.
The car now starts much more easily than it did before (at least, once we had the mixture roughly correct).
It is (thankfully) fitted with an electric starter. The car will start on battery power (not magneto), though the magneto does generate about 6VAC at idle. Once the car has been started, it runs on magneto without issue. The crank is difficult enough to turn by hand that I believe compression is adequate, but I do not have a compression gauge with which to objectively verify this.
The rebuilt carburetor did improve the responsiveness of the throttle on flat ground. Combined with the newly adjusted transmission, this meant that pulling forwards and backwards in the driveway was much more effective, and did not require any pushing from bystanders as it did before.

However, it still has significant trouble climbing the moderate hill in front of the house where the car is located. Allegedly, the car could handle the hill well in the past, so there is something we are doing wrong in calibrating or operating the vehicle.
I have read on this forum to avoid "lugging" the engine up hills, however, the only way we can progress up this hill is with maximum throttle, the spark set halfway advanced, the mixture just rich enough for a bit of black smoke in the exhaust, and no passengers with no unnecessary electrical loads. Even so, the car progresses at barely a walking pace, and from what I have read, it should be able to conquer this hill much more successfully.

Based on what I have observed, the issue likely lies primarily in a lack of power being produced by the engine, as compared to excessive driveline drag. This is based on the fact that toggling the headlights, which are a moderate electrical load, makes a noticeable difference in the performance of the T. In fact, the headlights being on/off is the difference between a "successful" walking-pace ascent of the hill, and stalling in this process.

Do you have any ideas as to what may be causing this power loss? My only other "vintage" automobile experience is with a Triumph Spitfire. Relative to the 1296cc engine present there, the T engine has significantly more valve noise, and significantly more vibration as well. Could poorly adjusted valves cause this drastic power loss? Is valve noise typically very loud on these engines?


Also, the car has not been driven or started much at all since the oil was changed as it was pulled out of storage. A rough total of 20-30 minutes running time, most likely. We noticed that the oil is already jet black, which in "Triumph land", means we are due for a change already. Do Ts usually foul oil this quickly?


Thanks for your help and advice.

[Norman Kling]

A few things you did not say. Did you drive the car up the hill before it was stored? Are you using low gear when you attempt to climb this hill? How full is the gas tank when you try to climb? Are you using a fuel filter other than the sediment bulb? Is this car equipped with a cowl gas tank? Do you have a Ruckstell axle or other auxiliary transmission? How high is the float level in the carburetor?

Timing could be a cause of the problem. If it is too retarded it will lose power. If you can get a run before climbing the hill you might be able to use a more advanced spark if in low gear with the engine running at a high RPM.

First thing I would do would be to invite someone with another Model T to come visit you and see how their car climbs the hill. Then you will know whether the problem is your car or the way you are driving it, or if the hill is just too steep to climb. Note, stock Roadsters will climb better than Tourings and Sedans will be the slowest because of the weight of the car. All these things enter into the picture.
Norm

[techwiz001]

Norman,
I did not drive the car before it was stored. I am helping to get it back on the road, but have not driven it before.
We are using low gear when attempting to climb the hill.
The gas tank had approximately 7 gallons in it when attempting this climb, and it is located beneath the windshield (not under the seat).
There is no fuel filter other than the sediment bulb.
There is no auxiliary transmission fitted.
Not sure about the float level in the carburetor. We left it as it was previously, so this could be the issue. Is it possible to set with the carburetor installed?

Gotcha. We can get a short run at the hill, but not too long at all. If we decide to run the hill again, we will try it with a more advanced spark. We are not aware of another T in the immediate area, but will keep our ears open for mention of one to test on the hill.
This car is a Coupe, so I would imagine it is not too heavy by comparison to a Touring or Sedan.

Do Ts usually smoke at the tailpipe under heavy load?

Thanks again for your help in finding the root of this problem.

[TRDxB2]

So your saying you have a successful climb with the headlights on and struggle when their off and running on magneto? How does it run on battery?

[Steve Jelf]

I don't think you need another T to tell you this car is gutless. It would have to be a heck of a hill for a T in good condition to have trouble getting up in low. The question, of course, is why it's gutless. It could be something worn out or defective, or just a matter of adjustment. I would start with adjustments. Holley G float adjustment: Murray Fahnestock says ½" from the top of the float to the machined flange. You have to make the adjustment by bending the little tab that pushes the needle. It may be theoretically possible to do this with the carb in the car, but I bet it's easier out. There's also spray needle adjustment. With the engine running open the needle toward rich (CCW) until it starts to stumble (run poorly). Then turn it back toward lean (clockwise) until it starts to stumble again. Halfway between the two stumbles is where it should run best.

Also be sure the ignition timing is set correctly: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG97.html

You can also go through Milt Webb's list and make all the checks and adjustments he describes. Many won't apply to the immediate problem, but should be done. http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG93.html

[techwiz001]

Thanks for the feedback.
To clarify, with the headlights on, the run is a complete failure, with the car stalling in low. With the headlights off, the run is technically "successful", progressing up the hill at a walking pace (or slower) under maximum throttle. This occurs with the car running on battery. We are not sure if it would be successful on magneto, as we did not have the magneto hooked up until after we had pulled the hill. We were worried about attempting it again, for fear that the car would not be able to make it the rest of the way up.
We will pull the carb and adjust the float to 1/2" from the flange the next time we work on the car. This measurement should be taken with the carb upside down, and measured at the end of the float opposite the pivot, correct?
As far as the needle adjustment, we were having a bit of difficulty getting that correct. Upon leaning the mixture, the car never really stumbled, but would immediately die if the mixture was made too lean, even when adjusting the needle very slowly. When we attempted to richen the mixture, stumbling was not noted until almost two full richening turns of the needle. After approximately the first richening turn, large quantities of black smoke were pouring out of the exhaust.
We'll be sure to correctly reset the timing and begin working through the rest of Milt's list when we work on the T again later this week.

[Scott_Conger]

With an unknown car and someone who has never driven a T before, I am not going to wade into the guessing game of what is going on with so many systems that appear to not be working properly. If you follow Steve Jelf's advice and read Milt Webb's advice on his website; you WILL find out what's wrong, but you may be at this for days, in any event. I think there are far too many things going on and being tinkered with for participants on a public forum to try to stay ahead of it all.

However, one thing is nearly certain.,,if the car falters and dies with the lights on, there is a serious draw on the battery which the generator is not keeping up with, and the battery is likely very old or possibly has a poor ground. In any event, I would not play with that until a very serious look is given to the entire wiring and charging system...for sure, tighten all connections as a start. That much amperage draw and you're looking at burnt wires soon if not already.

Send out the carb and coils for a proper rebuild as a baseline start. From there, good luck

[John kuehn]

There is lots of good advice given about checking out your T and how to improve performance in this post. Just to make a point yes your T should climb a hill fairly easy in low and get going but also remember if you are at a dead stop to begin with you may have to climb a good ways in low if the hill is fairly steep.
Getting a running start helps a lot so you can get going and then going into high can be accomplished depending on the grade of the hill.
If your new to Model T’s it’s takes a while to get use to their low horsepower performance compared to modern vehicles with 100hp + and more. T’s have around 20-25 HP so that’s something to remember. And that’s when they are in good shape.

A good running stock T is fun to drive while remembering that they aren’t a go-getter like we are use to driving these days.

[TRDxB2]

Seems like there has been focus on fuel issues, what about electrical? Have you checked wiring, and difference in spark to each plug with headlights on off and running on battery? Trying to tie to what you said (To clarify, with the headlights on, the run is a complete failure, with the car stalling in low. With the headlights off, the run is technically "successful", progressing up the hill at a walking pace (or slower) under maximum throttle. This occurs with the car running on battery.) You also said it idles well on magneto.

[Mark Gregush]

Unless someone has wired the headlights to run off the magneto, they should be run off the battery, there should be no issue with the lights when running on magneto. If the lights are wired off the battery, there is no relationship between the lights and the motor running except the generator and if it is causing that much drag then the engine must be really under powered or has been wired wrong.
How old is the battery? Has it been checked?
How far do you have the spray needle open? Running too rich is like flooding the engine, the black smoke under heavy load and can cause loss of power.
Without being able to see the hill, maybe it's a low speed hill?
Being hard to turn over is subjective as a compression check. I suggest you find or barrow a gauge and adapter and check. You could have a number of things that cause drag, such as clutch or bands that could give a false reading while just cranking over.
Have you actually opened the petcock on the carb and done a flow test. Not just open, yes there is fuel coming out and shut it. Open and let run for a while.
I would also suggest rechecking the bands, maybe back off the low a little, go for 1-1/2+ inches. Check the brake and reverse to see if they are too tight, they could be dragging causing loss of power.
Re the oil change, depends on how dirty the engine is inside. If you have not, you might want to pull the inspection plate and do some cleaning. Take the horse shoes out and clean the area around them. Also, if the compression is low, you will be getting a lot of blow by that fowls the oil.

[Steve Jelf]

I won't add any more suggestions about what to do (I would guess you have a combination of several factors), but I will suggest that you run the car after each thing that you do so if you do effect a cure or improvement you'll know what did it.

[techwiz001]

Thank you all for the very helpful replies, we will be sure to work through your suggestions (with a test after each "fix") when back with the car tomorrow.

The battery is less than a year old, and appears to hold a charge well. The electrical contacts throughout the vehicle had been cleaned before the first start, but we will give them another going-over for sure. A 6V trickle charger is used when the car is not running.
What should the voltage measure when the car is running, and the battery is being charged by the generator?

The headlights have been wired to the battery, which is why the noticeable load difference when they were turned on and off concerns me. Either the engine is making significantly less power than it should, or the generator has much more drag than it should.

We will compare the intensity of the spark on each plug with and without the headlights on. They were drawing much more power than I expected initially, especially considering their relatively low brightness.

I will work on acquiring a compression gauge to get quantitative readings for each cylinder.

There is good, continuous fuel flow out of the petcock on the carburetor. Some gas was drained through to ensure that no sediment was accumulating along the flow path, and the fuel came out clean and strong.

Thanks for the feedback regarding the oil color. Hopefully the accumulation is an effect of age, we will continue to monitor how quickly it blackens oil.

Are the valves on a well-adjusted Model T typically very loud? Valve noise is much louder with this engine than I am accustomed to with cars from about 40 years later.

[Steve Jelf]

Are the valves on a well-adjusted Model T typically very loud?

I don't notice them over all the other noise.

The only real test for spark plugs is to see them fire under compression with a tester. Just laying them out on the engine and watching them spark isn't a real test. A bad plug could be your problem, or a big part of it. Running on only three cylinders will sure bog you down. Unless you have a tester, just put in a set of Autolite 3095 plugs (about $12+tax). Any of the chain stores will have them or can get them PDQ. They'll be good for at least a few months.

[George House]

I agree with Mark - Compression..easy to check.Its best when all cylinders have similar readings. Hope for 60 + . Also jack up the rear axles individually. Put your T in neutral and hand spin the rear wheels. Hear any emergency brake drag ?

[Mark Gregush]

Do the lights come on if the engine is not running? The car running on magneto or battery, bottom line would be, there would not be enough drag from the generator to cause the issues you are describing.
Does not sound like you drove the car up the hill before doing this work and are going by word of mouth, is that correct?

[Norman Kling]

Just a few things to add to the excellent suggestions above.
1. It is possible that the passages in the carburetor might be plugged up by old gas which tends to turn like varnish when it gets old. A good blowing out with compressed air might help you.
2. The correct setting for the richness needle is to turn clockwise until the engine begins to stall and then turn counter clockwise until the engine begins to run rough and surge. The needle is then turned to a point about half way between and the engine should run smoothly without black smoke.
3. The engine should be thoroughly warmed up before you attempt to climb the hill.
4. A good way to be sure of a good ground in the electrical system is to take a short piece of battery cable with an eye on each end. Bolt one end onto one of the bolts holding the starter to the hogs head, and the other directly to the frame.
Norm

[DHort]

You have 7 different people telling you what to do. Might pay to write some lists regarding electric, fuel, etc and work from there.

[techwiz001]

Quick update--unfortunately, no progress yet.
With the engine idling, we did confirm that all the plugs are firing, as the rhythm changed when each plug was shorted.
We also set the timing as instructed on Milt Webb's website. It was extremely close before, but we did change it a small amount.
Still don't have a compression gauge, but will work on acquiring one for sure. This should be checked with the engine hot, correct?
Spinning the rear wheels individually is not very easy. There is a small amount of emergency brake drag with the car in "neutral", but the brake adjusters do not have any more room to engage the brakes later. There does appear to be driveline drag somewhere else (two people are essentially required to push the car), but the transmission bands are adjusted per Milt Webb's checklist guidance, and we have not located where the rest of the drag is coming from.
The lights do come on when the car is not running. We also disassembled and cleaned each electrical connection, and they are now contacting solidly.
Correct, I did not drive the car when it was successful at climbing hills. I am assisting a friend in getting the car back on the road, as it was his father's, who passed away about a year and a half ago.

Thanks for the additional suggestions. We will be sure to work through them when with the car next.
Our next step will be working through Milt Webb's comprehensive checklist for pulling a T out of storage. Hopefully one (or more) of the topics he covers is the source of our issue. Just thought I'd update you with the plan--thanks again for your help in performing these initial checks.

[Ruxstel24]

Matthew,
Do your compression test cold, record numbers, if below 60psi,
Add a little oil to each cylinder and crank it through a few times. Recheck compression, if there's a big increase from before, your rings are leaking. If it's still low, it's valves. You can blow air into the cylinder and see which valve, but I would just pull the head at that point and plan on a valve job.

Sometimes a little MMO can help valve issues from sitting.

[Scott_Conger]

George

with atmospheric pressure at 14.7, a stock 4:1 compression engine will never attain 60 psi. Matthew is in North Carolina, and unless he's on the coast, atmospheric pressure will be slightly lower still, as elevation rises...