TT brakes
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Topic author - Posts: 85
- Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:44 am
- First Name: Rod
- Last Name: Petrie
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TT brakes
What kind of brakes do I. have? There is just one brake shoe that goes almost all the way around. It compress around the outside of the brake drum instead of normal brakes that have 2 shoes that expand outward contacting the inside of the brake drum.
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- First Name: Dallas
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Re: TT brakes
Do they say Rocky Mountian on the brackets? Should have stock brake shoes inside the drum also.
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Re: TT brakes
Rob,
Do you believe these to be "original" after market brakes or could they be newer, added in more recent years? They could be original Rockies, but they are not modern reproductions. Original era Rockies had the band anchored as shown in your photo. Later reproductions are anchored at the forward bottom end of the band. That's why they work better forward that in reverse.
Look at the brake pedal. Does it have the name embossed on the pedal itself? Also, does the brake pedal shaft have the cam to actuate the Ford transmission brake? These things will help us figure our what you have.
Also, Dallas is correct. There should be a pair of emergency brake shoes inside the drum.
Do you believe these to be "original" after market brakes or could they be newer, added in more recent years? They could be original Rockies, but they are not modern reproductions. Original era Rockies had the band anchored as shown in your photo. Later reproductions are anchored at the forward bottom end of the band. That's why they work better forward that in reverse.
Look at the brake pedal. Does it have the name embossed on the pedal itself? Also, does the brake pedal shaft have the cam to actuate the Ford transmission brake? These things will help us figure our what you have.
Also, Dallas is correct. There should be a pair of emergency brake shoes inside the drum.
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Topic author - Posts: 85
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Re: TT brakes
I am away from home right now but will look when I get home. There are no brake shoes inside the drum.
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Re: TT brakes
You can find the shoes and other parts for E brake in the drum. Very important thing to have IMO.
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Re: TT brakes
I tend to be a bit against the prevailing opinions on TT brakes.
However, first, the outside semi-flexible lined part is generally referred to as a "band". Just to minimize confusion.
Stock standard rear brakes, whether you want to call them "parking brakes" or "emergency brakes " are quite different on a TT (truck) than they are on a "T" (car chassis). The TT rear wheel brakes are heavy duty, well built, and lined so that they are practical to use as an emergency brake. The standard T chassis? Not so good.
Either way, what you have is not the Ford factory issued brake. One problem is that because they are not factory standard, there are literally dozens of different ways for them to be set up. Not knowing exactly what you have, makes it difficult for us to give good advice. Whether they are operated by the brake pedal, or the hand lever, makes a big difference.
Outside band brakes were considered better for a variety of reasons. That is why they were manufactured and sold in large numbers. However, under certain conditions, outside band brakes are NOT as good or as reliable. That is why many people will recommend having the inside shoe brakes functional as well as the outside band brakes. Whether or not they are both needed depends upon how they are operated.
Where my opinion differs from the prevailing opinions is that many people recommend setting the outside brakes to operate from the brake pedal and also keep the brake pedal working together with the planetary transmission brake. I do NOT like that idea because I knew of a few cases where an adjustment issue cropped up and did cause accidents (fortunately, nobody hurt seriously, but significant damage to a few cars). The likelihood of such an occurrence in my opinion is far too great for that to be a good idea.
Whether the pedal or the lever is used, on either the inside shoe or outside band, and which on which, and where or even IF the transmission brake is kept serviceable, can be any of a few ways. Which is best depends upon circumstances, driving conditions skill levels, and personal comfort zones.
Most important. You should have two basically independent braking systems. Other than a wheel falling off, which would most likely bring your vehicle to a stop anyway, there should NOT be any one thing that could break or otherwise fail that would cause you to have no brakes.
Let us know what all you have, and we can give good advice on what direction you should go. And by the way? We like lots of pictures of model Ts and TTs!
However, first, the outside semi-flexible lined part is generally referred to as a "band". Just to minimize confusion.
Stock standard rear brakes, whether you want to call them "parking brakes" or "emergency brakes " are quite different on a TT (truck) than they are on a "T" (car chassis). The TT rear wheel brakes are heavy duty, well built, and lined so that they are practical to use as an emergency brake. The standard T chassis? Not so good.
Either way, what you have is not the Ford factory issued brake. One problem is that because they are not factory standard, there are literally dozens of different ways for them to be set up. Not knowing exactly what you have, makes it difficult for us to give good advice. Whether they are operated by the brake pedal, or the hand lever, makes a big difference.
Outside band brakes were considered better for a variety of reasons. That is why they were manufactured and sold in large numbers. However, under certain conditions, outside band brakes are NOT as good or as reliable. That is why many people will recommend having the inside shoe brakes functional as well as the outside band brakes. Whether or not they are both needed depends upon how they are operated.
Where my opinion differs from the prevailing opinions is that many people recommend setting the outside brakes to operate from the brake pedal and also keep the brake pedal working together with the planetary transmission brake. I do NOT like that idea because I knew of a few cases where an adjustment issue cropped up and did cause accidents (fortunately, nobody hurt seriously, but significant damage to a few cars). The likelihood of such an occurrence in my opinion is far too great for that to be a good idea.
Whether the pedal or the lever is used, on either the inside shoe or outside band, and which on which, and where or even IF the transmission brake is kept serviceable, can be any of a few ways. Which is best depends upon circumstances, driving conditions skill levels, and personal comfort zones.
Most important. You should have two basically independent braking systems. Other than a wheel falling off, which would most likely bring your vehicle to a stop anyway, there should NOT be any one thing that could break or otherwise fail that would cause you to have no brakes.
Let us know what all you have, and we can give good advice on what direction you should go. And by the way? We like lots of pictures of model Ts and TTs!
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Re: TT brakes
Wayne,
Your opinion may vary from prevailing opinions. but it does not vary from mine. Not only do I not like the idea of operating "outside" brakes AND the Ford planetary transmission brake from a pedal, some engineers in the day seemed agree with us. My TT has Bennett outside brakes. The set comes with it's own brake pedal which replaces the Ford brake pedal. The Bennett pedal is deliberately made without the cam necessary to operate Ford planetary transmission brake, thus preventing the simultaneous use of both.
IMHO whoever designed the Bennett pedal knew what they were doing.
Your opinion may vary from prevailing opinions. but it does not vary from mine. Not only do I not like the idea of operating "outside" brakes AND the Ford planetary transmission brake from a pedal, some engineers in the day seemed agree with us. My TT has Bennett outside brakes. The set comes with it's own brake pedal which replaces the Ford brake pedal. The Bennett pedal is deliberately made without the cam necessary to operate Ford planetary transmission brake, thus preventing the simultaneous use of both.
IMHO whoever designed the Bennett pedal knew what they were doing.
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Re: TT brakes
Thank you Henry P ! I am glad I am not alone here.
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Topic author - Posts: 85
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- First Name: Rod
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Re: TT brakes
I am new to this model T thing and the lingo. So what is the transmission brake?
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Re: TT brakes
Rod,
A regular stock T and TT (this part is the same on both) has a planetary transmission. This gizmo does several things:
1. It provides a low speed using a drum and band.
2. It provides a high speed using a clutch.
3. It provides a reverse using a drum and band.
4. It provides a brake using a drum and band.
There is no actual neutral. Neutral is achieved by holding the forward pedal between low (all the way down) and high (all the way out). The entire works shares engine oil with the engine (all the same oil).
So, to answer your question, the transmission brake is an oil bathed drum and band inside the transmission that serves as service brake for both T's and TT's. The brake lever (a completely separate system) is used an emergency brake, a parking brake, and when pulled back about half way, it holds the forward pedal at about half down putting the transmission in "neutral". This system works using shoes inside the drums (which are missing on your TT).
The reason for all the interest and discussion on brakes is that many of us feel the transmission brake is inadequate for a T in modern traffic. In a TT, even though speeds are typically less, with the heavier load potential the transmission brake is absolutely inadequate. Then, to further the argument for "auxiliary" after market outside brakes, when a T or TT is equipped with and auxiliary transmission or Ruckstell rear end there is the possibility of getting stuck between gears in which case the transmission brake is completely useless.
So, I hope that answers your question. I'll be interested to see what errors I've made in my explaination.
A regular stock T and TT (this part is the same on both) has a planetary transmission. This gizmo does several things:
1. It provides a low speed using a drum and band.
2. It provides a high speed using a clutch.
3. It provides a reverse using a drum and band.
4. It provides a brake using a drum and band.
There is no actual neutral. Neutral is achieved by holding the forward pedal between low (all the way down) and high (all the way out). The entire works shares engine oil with the engine (all the same oil).
So, to answer your question, the transmission brake is an oil bathed drum and band inside the transmission that serves as service brake for both T's and TT's. The brake lever (a completely separate system) is used an emergency brake, a parking brake, and when pulled back about half way, it holds the forward pedal at about half down putting the transmission in "neutral". This system works using shoes inside the drums (which are missing on your TT).
The reason for all the interest and discussion on brakes is that many of us feel the transmission brake is inadequate for a T in modern traffic. In a TT, even though speeds are typically less, with the heavier load potential the transmission brake is absolutely inadequate. Then, to further the argument for "auxiliary" after market outside brakes, when a T or TT is equipped with and auxiliary transmission or Ruckstell rear end there is the possibility of getting stuck between gears in which case the transmission brake is completely useless.
So, I hope that answers your question. I'll be interested to see what errors I've made in my explaination.
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Re: TT brakes
Sums it up pretty well Henry!
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Topic author - Posts: 85
- Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:44 am
- First Name: Rod
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Re: TT brakes
That answers that question but brings up more. Forward pedal? I thought the left was the clutch, middle reverse and right brake. How much is the tuition for model T 101?
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Re: TT brakes
You're mostly correct. Right pedal is the brake. Center pedal is reverse. But the left pedal has three functions: All the way down is low. All the way up is high. Half way between is the so called "neutral". This "neutral" is also achieved with the hand brake lever pulled half way back or all the way back by means of a cam on the assembly that has the effect of pressing the forward pedal half way down.
Typically, the left pedal is pressed half way down when stopping and must be pressed half way down when using reverse. Some guys like to use the lever sometimes instead of the pedal. I know, it's complicated, but you'll get the hang of it fast once you start driving one.
Typically, the left pedal is pressed half way down when stopping and must be pressed half way down when using reverse. Some guys like to use the lever sometimes instead of the pedal. I know, it's complicated, but you'll get the hang of it fast once you start driving one.
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Re: TT brakes
Rod, I see you are in the middle of Nebraska. How often do you make it to Lincoln? If you click on Home above you will see a Contacts button. Click on that and it will give you the phone number for Mike Vaughn. He is an extremely friendly guy who knows Model T's inside and out. Talk to him and see if you can make a trip down to see him. He will teach you all you need to know for now.
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Re: TT brakes
Rod,
You asked about the tuition for the Model T 101 course. You'll find that scrapped knuckles, a little swearing, a lot of patience, and as much money as you can spend will do it.
You asked about the tuition for the Model T 101 course. You'll find that scrapped knuckles, a little swearing, a lot of patience, and as much money as you can spend will do it.
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Re: TT brakes
Welcome to the TT world. It is 'different' but the 'same' as T cars
You are doing the best thing possible - Asking and Thinking and Checking
There is no 'neutral' between gears in the T/TT transmission like a 'normal' stick shift gearbox has, but the unit does in fact have a clutch with plates that engage the drum gears, this is a 'neutral' by way of disengaging the transmission from the driveshaft (the transmission is always connected to the crankshaft).
Clutch slip can be a problem in the TT if you use it for loads and have an overdrive auxiliary gear box, so keep that adjusted if you feel the TT slip a bit when you engage 'high' (when you let the pedal come up the truck may feel it takes a pause before the high engages properly).
It is not good to let any slip go without adjustment or you will burnish the clutch plates. Another way to burnish the plates is by taking your foot off the gear pedal too slow - never let the clutch 'slip' always release smartly. Likewise, when pressing down on the gear pedal for low speed, press fairly firmly, don't let the band slip on the drum while you engage the gear. Don't worry, you will get the 'hang' of it.
Yoy must have two separate brake systems but make sure they are not both connected to the brake pedal at the same time.
There are three set up options, but I recommend only one of the first two:
1) the outside bands can be connected to the brake pedal - in which case disconnect the internal transmission brake from the brake pedal AND ensure the original internal brake drum shoes are refitted and connected to the hand brake lever.
OR
2) The outside bands are connected to the hand brake lever only, and the standard transmission brake must still be connected to the brake pedal.
Option 3) - both the outside bands and the transmission brake are connected to the brake pedal together. In my view, and shared above, potentially dangerous and to be avoided due to adjustment problems. If this is the case in your setup you have an even more dangerous situation with no 'park or emergency' brake connected to the hand brake lever as the drum shoes have been removed.
You need to check to see what the actual set up is.
All the best and enjoy the TT
You are doing the best thing possible - Asking and Thinking and Checking
There is no 'neutral' between gears in the T/TT transmission like a 'normal' stick shift gearbox has, but the unit does in fact have a clutch with plates that engage the drum gears, this is a 'neutral' by way of disengaging the transmission from the driveshaft (the transmission is always connected to the crankshaft).
Clutch slip can be a problem in the TT if you use it for loads and have an overdrive auxiliary gear box, so keep that adjusted if you feel the TT slip a bit when you engage 'high' (when you let the pedal come up the truck may feel it takes a pause before the high engages properly).
It is not good to let any slip go without adjustment or you will burnish the clutch plates. Another way to burnish the plates is by taking your foot off the gear pedal too slow - never let the clutch 'slip' always release smartly. Likewise, when pressing down on the gear pedal for low speed, press fairly firmly, don't let the band slip on the drum while you engage the gear. Don't worry, you will get the 'hang' of it.
Yoy must have two separate brake systems but make sure they are not both connected to the brake pedal at the same time.
There are three set up options, but I recommend only one of the first two:
1) the outside bands can be connected to the brake pedal - in which case disconnect the internal transmission brake from the brake pedal AND ensure the original internal brake drum shoes are refitted and connected to the hand brake lever.
OR
2) The outside bands are connected to the hand brake lever only, and the standard transmission brake must still be connected to the brake pedal.
Option 3) - both the outside bands and the transmission brake are connected to the brake pedal together. In my view, and shared above, potentially dangerous and to be avoided due to adjustment problems. If this is the case in your setup you have an even more dangerous situation with no 'park or emergency' brake connected to the hand brake lever as the drum shoes have been removed.
You need to check to see what the actual set up is.
All the best and enjoy the TT
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Topic author - Posts: 85
- Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:44 am
- First Name: Rod
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Re: TT brakes
Thanks for all the advice. I will check it out in a couple of days when I have time. I see I will have to add traditional brakes so I will need all the parts. I am in Lincoln right now but am leaving in the morning. I. will try to get a hold of Mike the next trip.
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Re: TT brakes
I to am very new to the TT world. As I read this post and understand a second braking system sounds like a good idea. My next question would have to be, what exterior band braking system is best?
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Re: TT brakes
"..., What exterior band braking system is best?" Bar room brawls and started over such questions.
I think the real answer lies in how you plan to use your TT. There are a number of brands out there, but most have the band anchored in one of two places, either it's anchored at the end of the band (bottom part forward end) or it's anchored at the rear center of the band (like Rod's photo at the top of this thread). The difference is how well they brake in forward and reverse. With the band anchored at the forward bottom end you'll get great braking with moving forward, but not so much when backing. With the band anchored at the rear center you get equal braking when moving both forward and in reverse.
In my opinion I prefer equal braking in both directions for my TT. Loads, hills, etc. make the ability to stop going in either direction equally important to me. On the other hand, a person driving on flat land in city traffic may prefer the somewhat stronger forward braking of an end band anchored system.
Anyhow, my $0.02 worth.
I think the real answer lies in how you plan to use your TT. There are a number of brands out there, but most have the band anchored in one of two places, either it's anchored at the end of the band (bottom part forward end) or it's anchored at the rear center of the band (like Rod's photo at the top of this thread). The difference is how well they brake in forward and reverse. With the band anchored at the forward bottom end you'll get great braking with moving forward, but not so much when backing. With the band anchored at the rear center you get equal braking when moving both forward and in reverse.
In my opinion I prefer equal braking in both directions for my TT. Loads, hills, etc. make the ability to stop going in either direction equally important to me. On the other hand, a person driving on flat land in city traffic may prefer the somewhat stronger forward braking of an end band anchored system.
Anyhow, my $0.02 worth.