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Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:23 pm
by Matt in California
I picked this just in time for wood cutting season!
8C24AEF1-0137-478C-A6B1-DE150FAABF9F.jpeg
9627E6DF-6097-4056-86C1-94774F652F25.jpeg
EE02F769-D31C-4CBA-9406-B99E01FC5438.jpeg
I like the throttle and timing leaver.
ABF1BE96-A71D-4EE7-9D40-0875098F052F.jpeg
Year of engine.
A6E11033-FF72-4C11-A8AC-55C183E2AC1A.jpeg
So this is a brass era engine?

Matt

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:27 pm
by Dallas Landers
Very nice Matt! I cant seem to find anything like that around here.

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:36 pm
by Matt in California
Dallas Landers wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:27 pm
Very nice Matt! I cant seem to find anything like that around here.
Dallas.
Your winter will be colder than mine, so you need to find one!

I got this from someone who had purchased a house but the occupant was a model T & A enthusiast and was hoarding a large amount of parts. He refused to move until he sold everything. So the buyer had to pay additional money to buy the pile of stuff.

Matt

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:01 pm
by Dallas Landers
Sounds like a good plan! Im going to tell my wife that our house is worth more because of my T parts! Hope to increase the value monday at the sale. :D

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:29 pm
by DHort
I am sure OSHA will give you the green light on that saw.

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:17 pm
by wayne sheldon
NEAT SAW !
I would be torn between wanting to keep that as close to "as was", or to rework it with a common later engine so the motor could be used in an HCCA qualifying car.
A November second casting may or may not be a pre-January build engine, but most likely is and most likely would qualify for HCCA. Since the brass Ts were manufactured well into summer of '16, it would almost definitely been a brass T originally.

Since I do so admire original stuff, I think I would keep it "as was".
Find a radiator that cools, and get it working again!
Thank you Matt for sharing this find with us.

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:33 pm
by Les Schubert
I would suggest a governor would be a real asset

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:20 pm
by Matt in California
David, Yeah I am sure that OSHA would be excited to see this! They may have concerns that the belt is exposed, but besides that it should pass with flying colors! Especially when it works as intended cutting of limbs.

Wayne, Thanks for the details. I am leaning towards slowly collecting parts that go along with the era of the engine... But first getting the engine running. Then eventually I could have my first brass era T. I could always use this as an engine testing stand. I like the throttle/spark adjustments.

Les, I can't believe that you want to get political here on the forum! I am sure that we have laws in California about suggesting putting the governor on the engine. I have a request that no one else post any political responses. I don't want this thread pulled of the forum!

Matt

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 6:17 pm
by bud delong
I might be going blind but i see no table on that saw?? You should check the iron pile where you bought the saw.Bud.

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:05 pm
by Shemp
I agree I see no table definently would check the scrap pile that came from. Neat unit, thanks for sharing! This is what the girls and I use every year - only a 6hp and one cylinder but it eats the wood. Think it would be a smoother process with that T engine. I hope you get to try it out at least once.

PS - the engine is a 1919 Sandwich built in Sandwich Illionis.

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:16 pm
by richc
It looks like the transmission hogshead is aluminum. During early 1916 a few aluminum transmission covers were used alongside the newly introduced cast iron covers. These 1916 aluminum covers were more like the 1911-12 style covers in that did not have the reinforcing gussets at the bolts holes.
Aluminum Trans Cover.JPG
Rich C.

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:51 pm
by Burger in Spokane
I would dearly love to have an operational example like this to go cut wood with the TT.

26 731 2016 aug 01 copy (1).jpg

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:02 pm
by Matt in California
bud delong wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 6:17 pm
I might be going blind but i see no table on that saw?? You should check the iron pile where you bought the saw.Bud.
Bud, You are correct. This would be very difficult to use without a table. When I return I will see if the table is there, but it seems clear it was removed long ago. I happened to have the saw blade that I put on there... I bought it without know what it would drive.

Randy, I love your saw! I can't imagine using these buzz saws. I noticed with this one they have it so the pulley ratio is such that the blade is about twice the speed of the engine. And as you said 22 hp would be more than powerful enough to run under full torque. What RPM do you run yours at?

Rich, please enlighten me on how to find if I have the reinforcing gusset.

Thanks,

Matt

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:07 pm
by Matt in California
I opened the inspection covers in the valves look very nice:
9E71C12A-4B9F-4415-9382-36D58DAE86E2.jpeg
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I’m guessing that this is probably set for 40+ years.

Matt

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:21 pm
by Original Smith
Is this 1916 aluminum hogs head information available at the archives? It makes no sense to me!

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:08 am
by Matt in California
Here is the inside of the transmission:
87947668-A342-4ACB-A919-D6A1C8A5E8B0.jpeg
The inside of the transmission looks very nice as well!

The spark plugs from the inside looked like they were off my rebuilt engine. The top side the threads were rusted off in places. Through the spark hole things looked very nice.
9E28BD15-5117-4737-9B06-A7C21BB6E9D1.jpeg
Looking good so far!

Matt

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:59 pm
by Angmar
Very nice engine/saw unit. Be careful and please post photos and videos when it is operational.

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:23 pm
by perry kete
Be careful around villains with that saw !
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Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:00 pm
by bud delong
I hope you give this thing a long look before you start it! The chain for a front motor mount might not be very good? The way the saw arbor is centered on the engine is also not very good as you will have to angle your wood to get away from the engine and you do not wan't to pinch the saw. In my hop it needs work!Bud.

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:38 pm
by Matt in California
Perry, Thanks for the warning about villains;)

All, My plan is to just use the stand for testing the engine. The saw requires a belt, so it will not accidentally start turning.

Here is the inside of the crank inspection plate:
2D35E5F4-218A-4406-A024-734F7C8954AE.jpeg
(The fresh oil on the cardboard was not from this engine.) I guess it was a good thing that someone drained the oil in the pan. I think that this confirms that it set for ~40 years. How long does it take for the oil to turn to grease?

Here is what I saw looking in this inspection area:
8C2338BA-AF92-40C1-AC93-571238F5938A.jpeg
Feel free to make your own observations and comments.

Matt

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:53 pm
by richc
I’m not trying to change the purpose of Matt G’s original post about his great Model T buzz saw – I love it. However, there was some interest regarding the aluminum hogshead on his late 1915 / early 1916 engine assembly. From an earlier post by Hap Tucker in July 2012 we get this mention of 1916 aluminum hogsheads w/o the reinforcement gussets at the corner bolt holes:

“All 1916’s were believed to have had the iron cover. But when Trent Boggess did his research for his article on “Engine Painting” he reviewed photographs of the USA Ford production line. And the photograph of the 1,000,000 milestone engine which was produced at 1:53 ½ on Dec 10, 1915 was also used as one of the reference photos. Because David Dewey’s engine was within 100 numbers of the 1,000,000 he was very interested in when the aluminum transmission cover replaced the cast iron cover. David noted not only did the 1,000,000 photo show an aluminum transmission cover and it was the style “WITHOUT” the reinforcing ribs.

Trent’s response from page 16 of the Sep – Oct 1998 “Vintage Ford” is shown below:

“The transition from the aluminum to the cast iron hogshead took a number of months.
According to the “Record of Change” cards for the transmission cover assembly, the decision to change the material from aluminum to cast iron was made on or about Oct. 5, 1915. By the way, the cards indicate the decision to change to a cast iron timer was made the same day. Other documents at Henry Ford Museum & Greenfield Village (HFMGV) indicate that the decision to change to cast iron was made because of the rising cost of aluminum.

However, it appears that the actual transition to cast iron cases began several months later: A General Letter dated January 1916 told branches and dealers that some production was coming through with cast iron covers. When the car had a cast iron cover; the weight of the car would be 25 pounds more. There is also considerable evidence that aluminum covers continued in use into February 1916 on at least some production. The engine I used in my 1916 had an aluminum cover (#1090523) and I just purchased a chassis for Don Lang with a Feb. 1916 that also has an aluminum transmission cover What’s more, the covers that appear on these cars are what some folks refer to as the ‘11- ‘12 style covers without the reinforcement ridges at the corners. The records at HFMGV do not seem to indicate when these ridges were adopted and so we are left with another mystery that shall never be solved.”

Rich C.

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:06 pm
by Duey_C
A real clean looking engine inside! That little bugger would be pretty rusty inside, here up in humidity land/northern rust belt. :)
Ya, that wasn't quite the best idea for a buzz saw. I hope you keep it like that just for fun. And hang a belt close by. :)
Nice original Sandwich Randy! Heck, that 6 is more like a hoagie! We've used a factory 6 Economy saw rig a bunch. Good rigs too.
A couple of friends drove down to Iowa a couple weeks ago just to get a good sandwich. Pun intended. :lol:
Pssst, Matt, pssst, Les was talking about a device to regulate engine speed. Automatically.

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:37 am
by Matt in California
richc wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:53 pm
I’m not trying to change the purpose of Matt G’s original post about his great Model T buzz saw – I love it...
Rich,
Actually I think your comments are in line with my purpose. Namely, to discuss everything on this old contraption. I really appreciate your insight, research and sharing!

When I got this home and looked at the serial number/casting date I was a bit disappointed thinking it was not a brass era engine. Then Wayne posted his comments and I encouraged. Now I have some questions:
  • A November 2, 1915 engine would go on a 1916 model T. Is that correct? When did the model year start?
  • The HCCA defines a Horseless Carriage as a "vehicle built or manufactured prior to January 1, 1916." How would one find out if this engine was placed in a car prior to January 1st?
Duey,
Thanks for your comments about how nice the engine looks inside. I agree it is amazing even in a dry area like here. I think it must have been in a covered area (i.e. barn) where the dust built up over the oil. But no one has commented with at least one issue that I see inside the engine.

I hope that others get my humor about the engine speed regulator:)

Matt

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:15 am
by Thorlick
one of my favorite videos on YouTube was posted by Robert Metz. I suggest you view it!

https://youtu.be/0U31vL8s-uE

TH

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:42 am
by art32mor
That vid great Terry saw few year ago
Only got about 1/2 cord chopped time to go fell another 80+ foot tree

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:37 pm
by Matt in California
This is a better photo of the issue I was trying to see if anyone can figure out earlier.
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Matt

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:40 pm
by Matt in California
Here is my fix.
70D300AC-D3C5-428E-A6ED-A8EFEEB31A02.jpeg
What a pain to do this from the bottom side of the engine! Fortunately it was only number two and number three cylinders. I couldn’t have done it for the number four cylinder. I’m used to the later for drip pan engines. I can see how much of an improvement is.

Matt

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:41 pm
by Matt in California
Now I have a question:

Before I put the inspection cover back on. I wanted to verify that the oil line is working. I put some oil actually 2 quarts in the reservoir of the oil pan. I hand cranked it and didn’t see any oil come out the oil line.

Do you have any advice?

Matt

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:52 pm
by perry kete
If you can access one end of the line try injecting air thru the line with your compressor. I had a line that was plugged solid with old cotton lint and dirt and tried air but ended up taking it out and running a stiff wire thru it.

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:35 pm
by Matt in California
Perry,
I know that the line can be plugged. It sounds like you had to really tear down the engine!

Before I do that I was wondering if there is a easy way to verify that it is plugged?

Matt

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:02 am
by Matt in California
A member contacted me regarding a Buzz saw that they are building. He was looking for some info, so I thought I would post it hear and get others input.

First here is some other examples of Model T Buzz saws:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1435189210

Info on Model T Governors:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/17 ... 1300190691
I know I have seen some that are powered by the fan, but couldn't find them. Perhaps someone else can.

From what I can tell it seems like 2:1 or even 3:1 pulley ratios were popular. That would mean that the saw was running at 2 to 3 times the speed and 1/2 to 1/3 the torque. Assuming 2:1 ratio and using the following chart would yield the following results:
  • 400 engine RPM the saw would move at 800 RPM with 4 HP
  • 800 engine RPM the saw would move at 1600 RPM with 12 HP
  • 1200 engine RPM the saw would move at 2400 RPM with 18 HP

I would imagine that they would run the engine on the lower RPM and yield around 5-10 HP. With the large diameter blade you need some higher HP, but when you compare this with a chain saw or table saw that certainly seems ample.
model T torque vs speed.jpg
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No mater how you look at it in 1930 a old Model t chassis would make a cheap power plant with plenty more power than needed. I wonder how important a governor would be needed. As long as the engine didn't bog down it seems like the governor may be more work than it is worth. On the other hand if the engine had to be forced to a higher speed that may be dangerous to run the saw at a speed higher than it should safely operate.

I have never designed a system like this, so I would love to hear others insight.

Matt

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:28 am
by bud delong
The way [that] buzz rig is built you can control it easily with the throttle because you will not cut anything large on [that] buzz rig.I would hit the blade with a small hammer to see if it rings like a bell. If it rings look it over real good and make sure it is sharp. No ring or a dull thud,it is cracked and do NOT use it!!! The size of the blade will tell you the speed the saw is run at. Make sure that rig is solid before using,a tight belt,sharp saw,and start with small 2-3" wood to learn with.BE CAREFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bud. :D

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:46 am
by Charlie B in N.J.
that thing looks dangerous as hell just sitting there.

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:58 am
by Steve Jelf
We've seen the casting date, but not the serial number. That would tell the date of engine assembly. That won't exactly tell you when the engine was put into a car, but it would have been within a few days.

I believe you can run a wire through the oil tube with the hogshead off.

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:05 am
by Original Smith
There is a video around that I've seen a couple of times. It shows a guy driving a '25 pickup down a dirt road to a place where there is a Model T saw. It shows him cutting up enough wood to fill up the bed of the pickup, and then he drives off.

Re: Winter is coming, time to cut wood. Model T buzz saw

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:38 am
by Steve Jelf
There is a video around that I've seen a couple of times.

Out west in BC. Note that he gets into his Canadian T from the left side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U31vL8s-uE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LMv_Y4axYw