Need confirmation of problem

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jachady
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Need confirmation of problem

Post by jachady » Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:45 pm

Hey guys, trying to help a fellow T'er get his running after sitting for a year. Went thru the fuel, air, spark tests and found the problem to be a stuck open exhaust valve on cylinder 2. Everything else checked out ok. Would one open valve cause us to not be able to get her started?

Picture of the poor thing looking at mine, just wanting to get out and cruise the open road.
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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by RajoRacer » Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:07 pm

Most T's will run on 3 cylinders although it will be lacking power - might be a combination of issues - does it even attempt to run ?

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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by Ruxstel24 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:15 pm

An engine sitting for a year might be pretty hard to get going with a stuck valve, especially if it's an intake valve....blowing back into the carb with each stroke.
Try pulling the plug and put some penetrant oil MMO in the hole toward the valve and let it sit a while. Then tap the valve down (make sure it should be closed) and crank it through and repeat if needed.


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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by Adam » Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:31 pm

Stuck exhaust valves on cyl # 2 or 3 are many times caused by a mouse nest inside the valve cover... If so, you need to clean it out and properly free up the valves before you run it or the valves will burn.


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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:41 pm

Adam

you have completely lost me with that one.
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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by Steve Jelf » Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:48 pm

...many times caused by a mouse nest inside the valve cover...

Yes, they do get in there, I suppose by traveling up the tail pipe. If I was at home I'd post a picture of an engine that became a mouse apartment building.
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by Altair » Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:08 pm

I removed a T head and there was enough seeds in there to feed a mouse for a year. I think in your case it is just a stuck valve, if the piston is TDC use a stick and tap it down as mentioned above. I have had this happen just over winter and a couple of cycles of up and down and tapping then it was ok.


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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:08 pm

Adam and Steve

think very hard and tell me exactly how a mouse gets inside the valve cover...not the combustion chamber...I know how that can happen...explain the valve cover; ie, one of the two...either one is fine with me...
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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by Adam » Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:29 pm

They get into the valve gallery real easy... I’ve seen lots of mouse nests inside the valve gallery. They just walk right in... (1921-1926)


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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by StanHowe » Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:33 pm

Spray some good carb cleaner on the stem and tap it down with a wooden dowel.
It will free right up.
Will kill the mice, too.

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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by kmatt » Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:43 pm

Scott: On the post 1921 engines, the one piece valve over with the throttle rod hole between cylinder #2 and #3, makes a nice mouse entry point.


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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:44 pm

Adam/Kevin

color me red
I don't own a later car, but by golly, you are right (well, I actually do, but the '23 has an earlier engine and seldom work on later stuff)
shame on me
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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:16 am

I have seen Steve J's photos of a crankcase FULL of mouse! Sorry, I don't have a link to it. It had sat for quite some time, but CRIMINY!
Scott C, I was surprised as you know SO much about model Ts, I just thought you would know that automatically. However, I can relate a bit. I have gotten away from the newer Ts enough that I have not seriously worked on a one-piece cover T for several years now. I currently do not have anything really resembling a car that even takes a generator now. Regardless, Scott C, you ARE one of the best!


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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:28 am

Wayne

I am still smarting this AM over such an obviously erroneous declaration on my part!
I am far from an expert, but have been blessed with a life filled with very interesting things and a few wonderful mentors who inspired me to become what I am. Your comments are very kind. Thank you.
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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by Ruxstel24 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:36 am

I can see the possibility with a one piece cover, through the throttle rod hole.
More commonly, a valve will just stick up from condensation rusting the stem to the guide.
They usually free up without much trouble.

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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by RajoRacer » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:16 am

I found this stash in a newly rebuilt engine that had been sitting dormant for a number of years - little bugger got in there someway !
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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by jachady » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:27 pm

Was able to wiggle the valve this morning so I figured the problem must be deeper. I decided to pull the cover to look for a mouse. I didn't find a mouse, but I found lots of rust. Why would the valve cavity be so dry after sitting for just a year?
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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by RajoRacer » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:00 pm

Moisture migrated in there somehow - did it even attempt to run on 3 ?????


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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by jachady » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:56 pm

It popped a little here and there. Crank, crank, crank, poof. Repeat.

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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:17 pm

You said you checked everything so I'll stick my neck way out & guess you've got fuel & spark. Needle setting OK? Maybe open it a bit more? 1 ½ turns would be standard for a first (unknown condition) start. Any idea what the compression is on the 3 good cyls ? If it's low across the board 1 non-operating cyl might cause hell when trying to start. Get that valve working and go from there.

Keep posting. Info is a bit light. By the way, got a starter or yankin' ?
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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by jachady » Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:49 pm

Yes, got fuel and spark. I didn't check compression. I started looking at valves when fuel and spark checked out ok.

Luckily we are using a starter. Unluckily, its because we cant hand crank. We get half a crank in and it locks up. Cant budge it at all. But bump the starter and she spins right over. I think the bendix is hanging up. But thats an issue for after we get her running.

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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by Ruxstel24 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:46 pm

With the lockup condition you describe, I would pull the head. If you're trying to compress water, you can end up bending a rod. The head gasket may be leaking and is where so much rust came from.


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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by jachady » Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:21 pm

Ruxstel24 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:46 pm
With the lockup condition you describe, I would pull the head. If you're trying to compress water, you can end up bending a rod. The head gasket may be leaking and is where so much rust came from.
We have the plugs removed, there isn't any sign of water in the cylinders. The starter frees it up instantly. But then if we go back to hand crank we can only get a half a turn each time before locking up.

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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by Ruxstel24 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:49 pm

Locking up, hand cranking with the plugs out would greatly concern me.
Can you see if the rest of the valves are going up and down ?
Does it make any weird noises when cranking with the starter ??
It should be fairly steady also, with the plugs out.
You can also try jacking up one back wheel and chocking the front, then hand crank with the hand brake off and see if it locks up...


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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by Dallas Landers » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:46 pm

Just confirming you have a problem John! :D


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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by jachady » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:36 pm

So, we have been spraying Kroil and trying to wiggle the lifter. So far to no avail. I said we should keep spraying and trying a couple times a day for 2 days. If that doesnt work, could we apply heat to the lifter boss? What about using a vise grip to get a better grip on the lifter. I would make sure we are only grabbing the top 3/16th inch or so, the amount that doesnt drop into the boss so we son't mar it.


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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:12 pm

Seeing what you have there, you don't want to vice-grip this thing (you may ultimately have to replace it, but you will kick yourself for the damage you'll do to the lifter boss when you try to drive a vice-grip-bunged-up-lifter back out). The lifter WILL come loose if you wire brush what you can see, as depicted in your photo, then pull the inspection pan and alternately tap the valve closed through the plug hole in the head, and tap the lifter "up" (using a brass or wood rod and small hammer).

Pulling the pan will also reveal if the bottom of the lifter is rusted, too, and if so, maybe the cam lobe, though I don't think that's a strong possibility. Steel and castiron are very compatible as a bearing surface, and if the starter forced the lifter up and made the valve stick, then it's not fused together...this is very good news for you and why I say it WILL come loose. All this may end up as a slightly looser lifter than the others but will do no more damage than 90 years of wear has done already. If this was a fresh engine, I'd pull the cam and get that lifter OUT of there. If it was an older engine, then mox nix...once it's freed up, cleancleanclean and oil liberally and then drive it.

Once it's running, it will be interesting if you ultimately discover how/why that moisture got there, specifically. I'd bet a small head gasket leak which is inconcequential to running but allowed a small amount of water to migrate past the valve...you may find it's a bit rusty, too, ultimately...it's wobbly loseness probably kept it from seizing like the tappet/push-rod did.
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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by jachady » Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:59 am

UPDATE

We decided it was time to remove the head and have easy access to everything. Head came off easy, inspection of the head gasket showed possible water infiltration into combustion chamber. I'm not the best gasket reader, but it wouldn't take much to cause the rust I'm sure. I pulled the valve spring off the valve over the stuck lifter so we could pull the valve and tap directly down on the lifter. Problem was, valve wouldn't budge. At this point I decided saving the valve was not necessary as that is easily replaceable. I grabbed a pliers and wiggled and pulled and twisted and grunted until she finally pulled up and out. The top of the stem that does not go into the guide was so rusted and corroded that it is less than a quarter inch diameter. The guide portion looked pretty good. It was also bent near the top, possibly from trying to push it down through the spark plug hole, possibly from me twisting, possibly because it looks original.

We used a wood dowel first to try and tap the lifter down to no avail. We didn't have a brass rod, so I went with the next thing I had that would fit. A new valve. I dropped it in the guide and gave it a couple light whacks with a hammer. The lifter dropped. We oiled it up real good and then proceeded to spin the engine over. Lifter would stick up, I would tap it down. Over and over until Rods' thumb couldn't hold the starter button down anymore. When we stopped, the lifter would still stay up but just touching the valve with your finger would drop it instantly. So I'm sure the valve spring will get it to move.

I moved on to inspecting everything else and it doesn't look so good. It appears to me that all the valves are original, not just replaced with OEM, like 75 years old original. The stems are all corroded and thin. The moisture infiltration got the lifter bad but got the whole inside to some extent. The cylinder walls have a light film of rust on them, the intake and exhaust ports have chunks of rust on them, the valve seats are rusty and the valve faces are pitted.

My current plan is to pull all the valves and re-lap them. I'm wondering if the 7 poor sealing seats was keeping it from running since it should have sort of run with one stuck valve. I will replace the one valve and then put it all back together. We are also going to pull the Bendix cover and check the bolts and spring to see why it hangs up when hand-cranking. Then if it runs, I'll leave it to the owner to decide if he is comfortable the way it is of if he wants to go through the whole thing.


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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by jachady » Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:07 pm

I ended up replacing 3 valves. The stuck, bent one and then 2 of them that the valve faces were so pitted lapping wouldn't fix it. I lapped all other valves so the seats and faces look good. Then I started bolting it all together. Everything went super smooth until I got to the exhaust manifold. Take a guess what it looked like. I dont understand how it could've been attached with gland rings before we took it apart. Could it really have been bent and then sprung when we released it? When I had mine apart, there was about a 1/16th drop and I was able to get it lined up and attached. I dont think this one is going back on. Besides ordering a new one, any other thoughts?
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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by RajoRacer » Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:45 pm

I'd suggest to just order & install a new one - you can spend more in acetylene to attempt straightening !

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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by Oldav8tor » Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:00 pm

Off subject somewhat but look what I found in the cabin air filter of my Jeep Renegade this spring. Reminds me it's time to put the decon out.
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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by Ruxstel24 » Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:30 pm

Tim, those varmints just love the taste of wiring...never tried any, but it must be yummy !!
Looks around and make sure nothing is chewed on. The salty winter will corrode copper wire in a hurry.

We had a 300 towed into the dealer with a harness chewed up. My coworker was just realizing the wiring problem and behind the drivers wheel well was eye looking back !! A stupid groundhog was hiding and did all the damage. It was comical watching the boss trying to chase it outta there !! :lol:


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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by Allan » Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:42 pm

Dave, what is a coworker? I've heard of cowhands and cowbells, but not coworkers.

Allan from down under.

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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by Ruxstel24 » Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:15 pm

Allan wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:42 pm
Dave, what is a coworker? I've heard of cowhands and cowbells, but not coworkers.

Allan from down under.
A bloke that I worked next to, Allan. :)
Maybe it should be co-worker, but it came up on my phone. :?:


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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by Allan » Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:24 pm

Dave, it dawned on me just after I posted. I didn't know phones were also into corrupting our language. That little dash is important. To cooperate has nothing to do with coopers or barrel making!

Allan [ex grade school teacher] from down under.

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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by Ruxstel24 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:19 am

Allan wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:24 pm
Dave, it dawned on me just after I posted. I didn't know phones were also into corrupting our language. That little dash is important. To cooperate has nothing to do with coopers or barrel making!

Allan [ex grade school teacher] from down under.
Sorry Teach, I’ll do better next time...
It’s also important WHERE the hyphen goes.
Possibly cow-orker was what you were thinking ?
Or maybe an unknown American slang, cow-forker ??
Nope, just another Chrysler line technician. :lol:


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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by Norman Kling » Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:43 am

If you live in a damp climate, things will rust pretty fast. Many years ago, I had a Model A fender which had been sandblasted and lived in Southern California about 30 miles inland where it is dry. This fender was in my garage for a few years and didn't rust. Then we moved to the beach by the Pacific Ocean and although the fender was inside the garage, it rusted very quickly. A neighbor had the top of his car rust from the inside out!
The point is, that atmospheric pressure changes can move the air into and out of your engine and if the air is damp the moisture will condense on the internal parts and cause rust. The cure for this is to drive the car regularly and the engine heat will dry everything out. If the weather doesn't allow for driving, you can put the car up on blocks and put it in high gear with the brake off and run the engine until it warms up completely. This practice will also keep the battery charged. Do this a couple times a month and you should be OK.
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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by jachady » Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:30 am

Update: We decided to make sure it ran before spending money on the exhaust. So we bolted up the manifolds, gaskets on the intake, none on the exhaust. Then went on the carb and a final check that we werent missing anything. All good, so it was time to fire. Rod let me have the honors since I had all my time in. I jumped in and gave her a crank. And she cranked and cranked and cranked and cranked. And never popped.
Back through the steps, fuel at the carb - check. Spark at the plugs - check. Compression with a thumb check - not so much! 2 cylinders seemed very down on compression. At that time Rod says he has an actual compression tool. So we run a real test. Cyl 1 - 35, Cyl 2 - 10, Cyl 3 - 40, Cyl 4 - 25. Not good. But should be good enough to fire. So we jacked the rear off the ground to relieve any driveline drag and tried her again. She started right up! We had her running long enough to get hot so we can retorque the head bolts. And as she ran the engine started to smooth out and sound a little better. Altough it was hard to hear over all the exhaust leaks. Next step is to see if it will drive, then we can determine the next course of action.

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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by Duey_C » Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:05 am

Great update John!
You bet, in fair tune they'll pop right off and run good with a couple cylinders with really crummy compression.
Been doing it with one of mine for 20 years, I just pull on one of the good'er' cylinders. 8-)
I'll just ask, by chance did you happen to know Robert (Bob I think, 1917-2004) Laatsch from Jefferson?
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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by jachady » Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:30 pm

Well, I drove it today. Definitely down on power. Feels really good in low gear but the transition to high is horrible. Theres just no torque to get it going. It'd make a great parade car the way it is but I think the owner wants to drive it more than that. Next step is to do a leak down test to see if we have a valve sealing issue or a piston ring issue. Then we will move to the next stage.


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Re: Need confirmation of problem

Post by J1MGOLDEN » Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:55 pm

I recently purchased a complete 1925 engine that had been in storage for about 40 years. The valve cover was in place and tight, but the inside area was filled in the front area by a mouse nest and the whole center area was filled with a bee's nest.

There was a very large mouse nest in the front part of the oil pan and I still cannot imagine how they got in or out of there.

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