Who D.A.T. Ignition System

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sportbingo
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Last Name: Taylor
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Who D.A.T. Ignition System

Post by sportbingo » Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:49 pm

bosch magneto for ford car.jpg
bosch magneto for ford car.jpg (53.61 KiB) Viewed 1178 times
Smaller Bosch Magneto system ResizerImage430X420.jpg
Smaller Bosch Magneto system ResizerImage430X420.jpg (55.19 KiB) Viewed 1178 times
Bosch Magneto 1910 Chain Drive System vs Bosch Magneto Modern Belt Drive System
Around 1910 Bosch built gear and chain drive attachments. Their desire was to add efficiency and reliability for Ford owners. They fitted High Tension Magneto DU4 to the Ford engine. I wanted to do the same to my 1926 Tudor but I had a restriction with keeping my generator on the gear setup side. Therefore, I chose the chain/belt drive system.

My plan was to have the camshaft setup with two pulleys, one on the camshaft and the other on the magneto (with neoprene timing belt between each). I know the pulley system is not authentic or correct for the 1910 chain setup. It’s more modern than most Model T people would like, but it makes a lot of sense to improve the performance of the car. The timing belt has a lots benefits for example very little wear; no noise; no oiling/lubrication to the chain; no chain whipping; the neoprene belt body protection against grime, grease, oil and moisture; and gives a positive slip proof engagement. The Pulley/Belt System has a “PowerGrip-Timing” pulley made of fiberglass; high strength belt; high HP capability; and nylon tooth for long belt life.

The Bosch Magneto has lots of numerous benefits alone, example hotter spark; more power; better gas mileage; a lower throttling of the motor; eliminates complicated wiring (only five wires required, 4 spark plugs, and a kill switch or ground wire); and eliminates frequent filing and adjustment points.

It took me almost two years to design and build belt drive system. I had a lots of help from friends and Model T Members of the Forum. I would like to thank the following people below:
1. Steve Tomaso (RajoRacer)-Longbranch WA
2. Seth Spratin (Wreckrod)-AL
3. Roger Karisson-Southern Sweden
4. Steve & Debbie Belanger Maine-Mainely Magnetos Belanger’s Auto Electric INC. (rebuilt Mag)
5. Howard Kingford-Smith-New Zealand
6. James Pringle-Scotland
7. Jim Boyland-Whidbey IS WA
8. Eric Snow-E T Precision Machine-Whidbey IS WA (machine/weld)
9. My Wife Dorothy-Whidbey IS WA
10. My Son Mark-Whidbey IS WA
It takes village! Thank You All!
The engine runs great! I still have some remaining work such as the building a control rod for retard/advance; painting; and general cleanup.
Art Taylor (sportbingo)


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Re: Who D.A.T. Ignition System

Post by babychadwick » Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:15 pm

Not sure if I should mention this as it is complete but would it be possible to add a second pulley on an adjustable cam? The current tensioner would ensure everything is tight and the movable pulley would allow for an advance or retard on a mag that doesnt have an advance.

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Mark Gregush
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Re: Who D.A.T. Ignition System

Post by Mark Gregush » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:21 pm

LIKE! Never thought about running of the cam shaft. Most that I have seen seem to run off a gear on the pulley, or look that way. Thanks
Don't see much difference then running a modern Gates fan belt.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :roll:

1921 Huckster
1925 Cut down pickup

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Re: Who D.A.T. Ignition System

Post by BobD » Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:41 am

sportbingo wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:49 pm
The timing belt has a lots benefits for example very little wear; no noise; no oiling/lubrication to the chain; no chain whipping; the neoprene belt body protection against grime, grease, oil and moisture; and gives a positive slip proof engagement.
Art, that is exactly why I used a timing belt to retrofit a distributor on my dead magneto ’26 T.

Nice job! Will be interested to see how it performs.


Topic author
sportbingo
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Re: Who D.A.T. Ignition System

Post by sportbingo » Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:02 pm

Video on YouTube

Who D.A.T. Ignition System
D.A.T. is code = Dorothy.Art.Taylor

https://youtu.be/Cg-1Kqr7dts

Enjoy!


Topic author
sportbingo
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Re: Who D.A.T. Ignition System

Post by sportbingo » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:11 am

Building A Bosch DU4 Magneto Pulley Belt Setup.

Your viewing of “Who D.A.T. Ignition System” article is amazing. So, I thought of continuing articles by showing the details of building the pulley belt setup; (researches, documents, photos, videos, costs, contacts) from the beginning of the project to the end with the running of the engine. If you chose to build the pulley belt setup maybe I can save you time, and money. The question I can answer today. Yes, I can build this setup faster, cheaper, and with less mistakes. Cost was important and it forced to me do a lot more of the work machining, but I was committed to compete the task because of my investment at each stage of the project.
Let’s start off with discussing the elephant in the room. The cost of the items:
1) Bought Bosch DU4 magneto on EBAY $155.00.
2) Rebuilt Bosch DU4 magneto (Counter Clockwise) for $563.68
3) Purchased 10mm chain wheel Tensioner $11.99
4) Purchased SS base tensioner $26.00
5) Purchased 14 tooth gear pulley sprocket $34.14
6) Purchased 28 tooth gear pulley sprocket $71.48
7) Purchased timing belt $23.40
8) Purchased stainless round tube for camshaft $15.60
9) Purchased natural nylon cast sheet shimming bracket $52.86
10) Purchased 7’ foot spark plug wire and brass connector $18.00
11) Purchased Brass TINTON LIFE Universal Bathroom adj. shower head wall mount holder base org spark plug $16.97
12) Optional purchase pencil tension tester $23.22
13) General bolts, nuts, drills, skill saw blades (guess) $30.00
14) Salvage yard purchase street aluminum light fixture $50.00
After, spending better than $1,092 dollar I still didn’t have a turn-key working setup. Each task requires doing my homework. One of the main problems I experienced was that no one had built a setup on a Model T Ford using a pulley sprocket belt system. So, the only guide/design was using the 1910 Bosch chain drive setup.

The tools needed to proceed are a socket set (std/metric), sander wheel, files, band saw, saw all, jig saw, drills, drill press, taps, drill motor, air tool cutting fiber wheel. Tools I didn’t have: metal lay, and welder,

Please feel free at any time to ask questions of any kind? Some may not want to continue with following this article because we will sometimes be getting into the weeds and it might be more than you want in the discovery process. I WILL TRY TO KEEP MY DISCUSSION AS BRIEF AS POOSSIBLE TO NOT LOSE YOUR INTEREST. Let me assure you that I’m a layman, who only wants to learn more about my Model T Ford. I’m learning from you as much as I can.
One of my goals was to keep the setup looking simple, and neat.

The ace I had was mentor Steve Tomaso (RajoRacer) who restores Model T professionally and loves the hobby. He loaned me a camshaft core while I was working on this project. Also answered a lots of my questions as needed.

The topics being covered are:
1) Research all aspects of Project. Note: in all cases I tried getting lots information with more than one person as source, books, documentation from the Model T Forum about the subject Bosch Magneto.
2) Purchase of Bosch DU4 Magneto repair and setup documentation.
3) The do/don’t using/and the servicing a magneto.
4) The camshaft research size outside dia., length shaft, location of the camshaft pin, length of threads.
5) Building of the bracket based on my research and using Bosch chain drive setup as a guide.
6) Research and modification of the pulleys, belt, and tensioner using the original chain drive setup.
7) Machining and welding the pulley sprocket and drilling the pin location hole camshaft.
8) Purchase of wiring for engine and building wire collector keeping it engine looking neat.
9) Final looking at design of the retard and advance of Bosch Magneto.


Topic author
sportbingo
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:10 pm
First Name: Art
Last Name: Taylor
Location: Whidbey IS Washington
MTFCA Number: 22512

Re: Who D.A.T. Ignition System

Post by sportbingo » Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:22 am

First stage of building the Bosch DU4 Mag Pulley Belt Setup documentation.
I researched all aspects of this project. Note: In all cases I gathered information, for example books and documentation from the Model T Forum about the subject Bosch Magneto.
1) I purchased a book titled “BOSCH MAGNETO for FORD cars.” This book has a section on “Installing the Chain Drive Attachment” pages 11 thru 12. You can view the book online by “CTRL CLICK” on the address below:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=bo ... &FORM=IGRE

a. Book items of value pages 3-4 benefit of the Bosch attachment.
b. Book items of value pages 8-9 timing & high-tension connection.
c. Book items of value pages 14-15 picture of the bracket parts.
2) I used the search in the Model T Forum “Bosch Mag” for any article about the subject.
a. When I got a hit and it was of interest, I saved it in my binder.
b. Some of my contacts were made in the USA. Other contacts using a chain drive setup which is odd was made oversea in Southern Sweden, New Zealand, and Scotland. In all cases I asked for pictures, of the bracket, Bosch magneto timing, performance, and trouble shooting
c. Two Binders were created as follows:
a. first collection all information related to the Bosch subject;
b. second a technical document of tasks needed to be accomplished, pictures of progress showing task completion, and part manufacturers specification/order confirmation/shipping manifest.
c. Finally, Bosch Magneto DU4 Counter Clockwise Setup diagram/layout.

YouTube video on Documentation ‘ctrl-click’ below:
File name= 1080p Model T Ford W pulley belt setup documentation
Address =
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ig8fsIZhsPE

Note: If you haven’t seen the YouTube video of the Bosch Magneto Pulley Belt Engine running
‘ctrl-click’ below:
File name= 1080p Model T Ford W pulley belt
Address =
https://youtu.be/Cg-1Kqr7dts


Topic author
sportbingo
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:10 pm
First Name: Art
Last Name: Taylor
Location: Whidbey IS Washington
MTFCA Number: 22512

Re: Who D.A.T. Ignition System

Post by sportbingo » Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:34 pm

Second stage, the purchase of a Bosch DU4, repair and setup.
After purchasing the Bosch DU4 Magneto off EBAY for $155.00 dollars. I proceeded to clean all the grease/oil/grime off the magneto. My main goal was to send the magneto out for repair no matter what the condition. The success of this project will be based on the performance. The magneto is the “Heart and Soul” of this project.
IF THE MAGNETO FAILS THE PROJECT FAILS.

My research of the magneto consisted of following phases:
1) Using the internet, to check the drawing for missing parts
2) Finding a repair company (Mainely Magnetos Auto Electric Inc.)
a. Request mag be setup to get a strong spark
a. Rewound coil
b. Replace the condenser
c. Replace the point assembly
d. Get an extra point assembly
e. Request the control arm (retard/advance) be put on the left side
f. Request the magneto be setup “COUNTER CLOCKWISE”
g. The restoration cost of the magneto was $563.00
3) Researching the Model T Forum for members who have a Bosch DU4 magneto setup on their Model T.
a. Viewing YouTube video of Magneto with a strong spark
b. Setup Magneto documentation
c. Timing motor documentation
d. Points assembly documentation

Third stage, do/don’t/using, and the servicing the magneto.
I was told by (Mainely Magnetos Auto Electric Inc.) the following:
Never connect voltage to any magneto. Always have a ground wire to (kill/stop) the engine.
Never gap the spark plug greater than 1/32”. Always use solid core wire not resistor type.
Never spin a magneto without giving the spark a place to go to ground. Always oil once a month with a (toothpick).
Never drive with the spark retarded. Always start with retarding the spark, drive with spark advanced.
ResizerImage756X588 mag setup.jpg
ResizerImage756X575 mag timing.jpg
ResizerImage733X375 point setup.jpg


Topic author
sportbingo
Posts: 11
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Re: Who D.A.T. Ignition System

Post by sportbingo » Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:04 pm

ResizerImage606X656 camshaft.jpg
ResizerImage649X511 Front Face & bolt mount.jpg
Forth stage: I researched the Camshaft outsize dia., length, location of camshaft pin, length of the threads.

The camshaft extension shaft is a very important part of this design. The large sprocket is attached to the shaft extension. The 1910 Chain Drive Setup indicates the shaft must be drilled completely thru on both sides.
The Bosch book “BOSCH MAGNETO for FORD cars” page 11, requires that the installer drills the pin hole with 5/32” drill. The pulley sprocket will have a special key to hold it on the shaft.
1) A CRITICAL DECISION MUST BE MADE TO MOVE FORWARD WITH THE PROJECT AT THIS POINT, BECAUSE DRILLING THE SHAFT CREATES A LARGER PIN HOLE. A larger pin hole will make other timing devices harder to attach without some modification. Question, “Why build the Bosch Magneto Setup”? See the benefits below:
2) I waited until the pulley sprocket was built and ready to install before I drilled my camshaft.
3) The camshaft pulley sprocket was sent out for machining at a cost of $280. I will cover this machine work in more detail later.
4) Note: In the second photo above of the pulley sprocket design will not extend to interfere with water/fan belt.
ResizerImage756X621 Benefits.jpg
Fifth stage: building of the bracket based on my research and using 1910 Bosch chain drive setup as a guide.
Building the bracket which supports the magneto was designed by copying 1910 Bosch bracket. A larger front face to hold the belt tensioner base required some design modification
1) First, it was important that the top of the bracket be level front to back and side to side.
2) Second, it was important the bracket have three bolt attachment, (front plate, two point on the oil pan) so it will hold the magneto firmly while driving the car.
3) Third, it was important the bracket does not interfere with the water flow from the engine block to the radiator
4) Finally, it was important the bracket does not interfere with the front oiler

I started building the bracket base by using Styrofoam sheet 24 X 24 X ¼”, and a glue gun. When my bracket mockup was completed, I reviewed all my design requirements to see if they were satisfied.
1) Because I had no welding equipment, I chose aluminum for my base material. It is lighter and easier to cut and shape to my design.
2) After building my bracket mockup in Styrofoam I went around metal salvage yards looking for aluminum items matching my model.
3) With the help of a friend we found a streetlight which was a match of the mockup model. I bought the streetlight with the intact lamp for $50.00. Enough material to make three aluminum brackets.
4) Using my mockup templet, I made wood templets for the sides of the aluminum streetlight.
5) I proceeded to cut the aluminum streetlight to form the Bosch bracket.
6) I mounted the bracket on my engine and drove the car with the new bracket checking for a level and a solid mount.
7) Later in building/mounting of the pulley sprocket I added a nylon base to take up the belt slack.
8) The Bosch Bracket and nylon base are slotted to add bolt to bottom to hold the Bosch DU4 Magneto down.
9) The front face was drilled and tapped to hold the belt tensioner bracket.


YouTube video on building the Bosch Bracket ‘ctrl-click’ below:

File name= 1080p Model T Ford W building the Bosch Bracket
Address =https://youtu.be/Jl1stIYNqsE



Note: If you haven’t seen the YouTube video of the Bosch Magneto Pulley Belt & Engine running. Or the creating the setup documentation. ‘ctrl-click’ below:

File name= 1080p Model T Ford W pulley belt
Address = https://youtu.be/Cg-1Kqr7dts

File name= 1080p Model T Ford W pulley belt setup documentation
Address = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ig8fsIZhsPE


Harry Lillo
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Re: Who D.A.T. Ignition System

Post by Harry Lillo » Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:29 pm

If anyone is interested I have an original Bosch bracket as shown above.
I offered it to Art but he was far enough along on his project it didn't make sense for him to change direction.
Harry Lillo


Henry K. Lee
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Re: Who D.A.T. Ignition System

Post by Henry K. Lee » Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:52 pm

Art,

Very nice write up, Thank You!

Hank


Topic author
sportbingo
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Re: Who D.A.T. Ignition System

Post by sportbingo » Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:45 pm

Model T Ford Items of information

Engine Fire Order 1,2,4,3
1926 Model T Ford engine 22.5 HP
1926 Model T Ford RPM 1800
Timing the engine – set the #1 cylinder to TDC


Bosch Magneto DU4 Items of information
Stop the engine by adding a switch to ground the magneto.

From driver seat Camshaft Magneto setup Counter Clockwise
The points are left hand setup.
Camshaft gear ratio is 2 to 1
My Camshaft large gear is 28 teeth & Magneto small gear is 14 teeth

From driver seat Crankshaft Magneto setup Clockwise
The points are right hand setup
Crankshaft gear ratio is 1 to 1

The PowerGrip timing belt tension is 12 force pounds


Note: If you haven’t seen the YouTube video of the Bosch Magneto Pulley Belt & Engine running. Or the creating the setup documentation. Or the creating the building the Bosch Bracket ‘ctrl-click’ below:

File name= 1080p Model T Ford W pulley belt
Address = https://youtu.be/Cg-1Kqr7dts

File name= 1080p Model T Ford W pulley belt setup documentation
Address = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ig8fsIZhsPE

File name= 1080p Model T Ford W building the Bosch Bracket
Address =https://youtu.be/Jl1stIYNqsE


Topic author
sportbingo
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:10 pm
First Name: Art
Last Name: Taylor
Location: Whidbey IS Washington
MTFCA Number: 22512

Re: Who D.A.T. Ignition System

Post by sportbingo » Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:01 pm

The Bosch Magneto stage 7, 8, & 9.
Research and modification of the pulleys, belt, and tensioner using the original chain drive setup.
Purchase of wiring for the engine and building a wire collector keeping it engine looking neat.
Final looking at design of the retard and advance of the Bosch Magneto.

I produced a new video describing the pulley sprockets research, modification, and build below:

File name= 1080p Model T Ford W pulley research, modification, & build
Address = https://youtu.be/RYVSKIsrv1c

I purchased the wires and clips from Lang’s Old Car Parts (bulk wire yellow with black tracer sold by the foot (7’ of wire)). Also, purchased brass terminal ends for the spark plug wires (quantity 2 per spark plug). Notice: I set the wire up in a collector which matches the timing order of the car 1, 2, 4 & 3.
IMG_0109 Ford Timing Order 1.jpg
IMG_0110.jpg
The wire clip holder was built using a brass bathroom fixture at a cost of $18 along with a drill out washer.
IMG_0107a.jpg
IMG_0107b.jpg

Final looking at the design of the retard and advance of the Bosch Magneto DU4

Pulley gear lock down b IMG_0161 control rod.jpg
Note: If you haven’t seen the YouTube video of the Bosch Magneto Pulley Belt, Engine running, creating/setup documentation, and building the Bosch bracket. ‘ctrl-click’ below:

File name= 1080p Model T Ford W pulley belt
Address = https://youtu.be/Cg-1Kqr7dts

File name= 1080p Model T Ford W pulley belt setup documentation
Address = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ig8fsIZhsPE

File name= 1080p Model T Ford W building the Bosch Bracket
Address =https://youtu.be/Jl1stIYNqsE

THIS IS THE END OF MY BOSCH MAGNETO DU4 PULLEY SPROCKET BELT SETUP.
THANKS FOR SUPPORT!!


MY NEXT SERIES WILL BE: Who D.A.T Z Head


Topic author
sportbingo
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:10 pm
First Name: Art
Last Name: Taylor
Location: Whidbey IS Washington
MTFCA Number: 22512

Re: Who D.A.T. Ignition System

Post by sportbingo » Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:05 pm

Sorry the picture didn't show:

See below:
IMG_0109 Ford Timing Order 1.jpg
IMG_0110.jpg


Topic author
sportbingo
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:10 pm
First Name: Art
Last Name: Taylor
Location: Whidbey IS Washington
MTFCA Number: 22512

Re: Who D.A.T. Ignition System

Post by sportbingo » Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:07 pm

Additional picture:

see below:
IMG_0107a.jpg
IMG_0107b.jpg
Pulley gear lock down b IMG_0161 control rod.jpg

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