1912 engine and transmission Value

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Michael Davis
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1912 engine and transmission Value

Post by Michael Davis » Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:25 pm

I am thinking about selling this engine and transmission. I have seen them all over the board as far as price. So here are some pics. I was told that it was good running engine.

Mike 303-548-7622

rustrodsrule@yahoo.com
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rgould1910
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Re: 1912 engine and transmission Value

Post by rgould1910 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:04 am

Id say $ 1000 tops. The motor went into a 1913 model year car. The head and pan are later as well. I notice the valves are recessed into the block requiting new seats. Good luck.


Topic author
Michael Davis
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Re: 1912 engine and transmission Value

Post by Michael Davis » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:26 am

Thanks Nice to know

Mike


MWalker
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Re: 1912 engine and transmission Value

Post by MWalker » Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:04 am

It has already been bored to 100 thou over stock, so if it needs to be bored again, it will need cylinder sleeves. Around here, that's about $100 per hole.


Topic author
Michael Davis
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Re: 1912 engine and transmission Value

Post by Michael Davis » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:16 pm

OK Thanks


wayne sheldon
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Re: 1912 engine and transmission Value

Post by wayne sheldon » Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:31 pm

Well, I am not the person best suited to estimate value on this ( the reason I have not replied sooner). But I would think it would be worth somewhat more than a thousand dollars. There is a bit of a gamble here to be sure. In the first place, it is technically a '13 model year engine. However, being late calendar '12 makes it acceptable by HCCA rules for a '12 model year car (their rule states up to one year newer engine provided it is a correct type engine, and still pre-1916). There are always some people that want everyone to adhere to stricter standards, but generally, an engine like that would be good for any '12 or '13/'14 T.
Condition is a bigger issue. Personally, I would never recommend a "100 over" engine for any model T Ford that someone hoped to drive very much. And that goes double for early (brass era) T engines. Earlier engines were more prone to casting issues due to core shifting. Adding to that, the outer surfaces seem to be suffering from considerable exposure and rust issues. That may or may not affect the internal critical areas, like inside the water jackets and the core strength of the combustion chamber. In my opinion, that engine should have been sleeved the last time it was rebuilt.

Frankly, it should be properly rebuilt before being run. However, it "appears" to have been rebuilt before? The gamble is, how much was done to it, and was any of the work good enough to be used now? If the bearings and crank are good, that could save a bunch on a refresh. The main things are whether the cylinders are good, no cracks (a common result from boring too thin), and other common areas of failure, main bearing webs, valve chamber areas. Surface cosmetics can be addressed with epoxy fillers.

There may be some doubt about the vintage of the block? I would wonder what shape the rear of the cylinder block is? Stepped? Or sloped?
What pan does it have? Narrow nose? Tea cup? The cast front piece, long (surrounds the drain hole)? Short (does not surround the drain hole)? How many rivets in the pan arms? So many details.

Prices seem to be down the past year or two. Good aluminum hogsheads were selling for nearly $200 about six years ago. I bought a few rough ones for under a hundred each myself. I (and about a thousand other people!) passed up some nice ones at last June's Auburn swap meet at around $75 each (I got a really rough one that I can actually make good for $5). When I got the pans for my projects about six to ten years ago, I struggled to get two repairable pans for under $200 each (both were early nose tea cups which upped the price a bit). In the past year, I have seen a few nicer narrow nose pans for around a hundred bucks, and I got two repairable giveaways (one as good as one I had paid about $175 for about seven years ago). Both Erik Barrett and Layden Butler have been trying to sell decent narrow nose pans for about fifty dollars recently.

Decent early blocks do not seem to be down in price much. A few years ago, bare 1912 blocks in good condition were selling for two to five thousand dollars (I thought the one that sold for five was way over priced!). A few complete '12 engines went for around 5000.
Just what they would sell for today I am not sure. But if I had the money to spare? (I do not!) I would give a thousand for what I think I can see myself. And I was always a cheapskate, even before family and fate made me really broke. Doing most of the work myself, I could probably turn that into a decently good engine for about $300 over the cost of sleeving and pistons (whatever those go for these days?). But that is me.


Topic author
Michael Davis
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Re: 1912 engine and transmission Value

Post by Michael Davis » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:11 am

Thanks for your reply. I will pull the pan and look at rods and mains. I will take a look close at the cylinders to see if sleeved or just bored and see what kind of ridge there is if any

Mike


BobShirleyAtlantaTx
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Re: 1912 engine and transmission Value

Post by BobShirleyAtlantaTx » Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:14 pm

I have never seen a ridge in a T cylinder. The piston clears the top of the cylinder on each stroke. Thus no ridge?


Allan
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Re: 1912 engine and transmission Value

Post by Allan » Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:31 am

On early engines I pay particular attention to the rear main bearing web. They are known to crack. More than one I know of have had the web break out of the block, taking the crankshaft with it.

Allan from down under.


Topic author
Michael Davis
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Re: 1912 engine and transmission Value

Post by Michael Davis » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:42 am

Thanks for the info

Mike


wayne sheldon
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Re: 1912 engine and transmission Value

Post by wayne sheldon » Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:57 pm

One little tale from me. Many years ago, I had a T engine that was at least as bad if not considerably worse than this one as far as external surface rust and pitting issues. It was not an early engine, being a '25, and I had gotten it in a group of three engine blocks that I got from a fellow T hobbyist cleaning out some of his excess (I got some other things from him also). My block was so bad, that only three digits of the serial number could be read. Three or four of the other digits were completely obliterated. The entire front half was the worst pitted T block I have ever seen up close. The back half was only less bad. The area where the manifolds bolt on was also terrible looking. Fortunately, the contact areas for the manifolds had been protected from whatever condition had caused all the pitting, so I elected to not have the area surfaced. Surfacing that area would have required taking about an eighth inch over the full area. I figured the block would be stronger with the lows and highs left in place. The manifolds seated fine, and never leaked for the several years I ran that engine. No doubt about it, that engine block was ugly!
On the other hand. The main bearings looked to be in as close to perfect condition as I have ever seen original Babbitt. And I have reworked and run about a dozen original Babbitt engines over the years. The bore measured perfect. No visible cracks anywhere. The inside water jackets did not appear any worse than most original T blocks (in spite of whatever caused the external issues). And the crankcase area inside was covered in oil, and as nice as any I have ever seen. It was a good engine that I drove for several years.
The point of all that is do not write off a block just because the outside looks a bit rough. It just may still be a good engine.


Topic author
Michael Davis
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Re: 1912 engine and transmission Value

Post by Michael Davis » Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:47 pm

Thanks for the positive input

Mike

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Matt in California
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Re: 1912 engine and transmission Value

Post by Matt in California » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:22 pm

I hope my question is Does not take away from the original question.

What is the going price for a 1914 engine?

How about a 1915 engine?


Obviously condition matters. If this 1912 engine was considered to be $1000, How much would we be looking at if it was 1914 or 1915?

Thanks,
Matt


SurfCityGene
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Re: 1912 engine and transmission Value

Post by SurfCityGene » Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:44 pm

Mike,
Could you post a picture of the inside of this engine showing the rear main bearing mounting. I'd like to see the underside of casting at the rear from the Inside looking towards the rear. Specifically looking for a single gusset under the rear main or a double gusset.

Thanks.
1912 Torpedo Roadster


Topic author
Michael Davis
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Re: 1912 engine and transmission Value

Post by Michael Davis » Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:31 pm

I will try and get some pictures in the next couple of days

Mike


SurfCityGene
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Re: 1912 engine and transmission Value

Post by SurfCityGene » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:59 pm

Mike, Thanks, If there are no freeze cracks or repairs so common on many T blocks this would increase the value quite a bit.
1912 Torpedo Roadster


Topic author
Michael Davis
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Location: Montrose CO

Re: 1912 engine and transmission Value

Post by Michael Davis » Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:26 pm

Hope these pictures show what you want to see.

Mike
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wayne sheldon
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Re: 1912 engine and transmission Value

Post by wayne sheldon » Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:01 am

Interesting. Dunn counter weights, some tricked out added oiling. I wonder how that oiling system was fed? Could maybe add bit to the value?
I am not certain, but I think that looks like the earlier rear main web. Although the earlier style web was not as strong as the later ones, it would indicate with some certainty that the block is genuine early.


Topic author
Michael Davis
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Re: 1912 engine and transmission Value

Post by Michael Davis » Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:52 am

hey guys Thanks for the reply's. ok What is it worth if I sell it?

Mike

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