'16 Centerdoor restore...

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fordorgalore
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:26 am

My apologies to John, I should have went to bed earlier... Thanks for the post. :roll:


John Page
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by John Page » Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:05 pm

G'day Don,
No need for an apology. I have some idea of what you are going through with piecing the jig - saw puzzle together.

Best regards, John.
Attachments
Scan 59.jpeg
Scan 73.jpeg
Scan 72.jpeg


Wayne Sheldon
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:41 pm

Don B, I don't know about you sometimes. You are about two hours ahead of Califunny in the time zones, and when I, a notorious night-owl, post something at two o'clock dark Califunny time, and then you, with a two hour time differential, post a reply after me? Sometimes I wonder as the sun begins to rise.

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perry kete
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by perry kete » Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:45 pm

Don,

I only did a little baby Coupe my hats off to you for all the rebuilds you've done.
Model T-'22 Coupe passenger door-Denny's.jpg
1922 Coupe & 1927 Touring


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fordorgalore
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:02 pm

Ah yes a Fordor John....been there.

Wayne, i'm on EST and I also have a habit of getting up at 0430-0500. Plus the wife gets up earlier than me. So whats a guy to do?

Mr Pair o Keet, that is a fine looking job you did there !! Where's my M&M's ??

So the driver door has this very precise cutout at the center top. What would this be for? No screw holes to indicate anything ever being mounted there....
Attachments
IMG_20191230_163118997.jpg

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perry kete
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by perry kete » Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:44 pm

Don,

I didn't have a notch in my door at the top but one on the side that it had to align with a bumper to help hold the door in place when closed. I guess it helped with sagging. Do you think that's what it may be?

OR

It where the electric motor for the window opener sits

OR

It's a hiding place for M&M's
1922 Coupe & 1927 Touring


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fordorgalore
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:48 pm

I dunno, as you can see there ain't one dang M&M ….. This is on the outside of the door.


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by mtntee20 » Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:35 pm

Don,

Is there a corresponding notch in the framing above the door?

Since the bodies were hoisted onto the frames, Maybe, this is a "registration" notch to properly align the lifting device for balance and tilting during the installation of the body?

Love your Work, Don.

Terry


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fordorgalore
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:48 pm

Hi Terry, I don't have the original top rails to know that. It is only on the drivers side door, the passenger door doesn't have it.
Just another ??? :|


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:53 pm

All I know is that I sure don't know?????


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fordorgalore
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:16 pm

Its starting to look like a Centerdoor. Still nothing is fastened but its time is coming.
Attachments
IMG_20191231_151026550.jpg
IMG_20191231_151035372.jpg
IMG_20191231_151053036.jpg
IMG_20191231_151105749.jpg
IMG_20191231_151119305.jpg


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fordorgalore
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:17 pm

One more...
Attachments
IMG_20191231_151015821.jpg


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by mtntee20 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:40 pm

Hi Don,

Love your work. Looks Great.

Question: In your last photo, I see a hole in the rear quarter panel. I expect that hole if for the fender mounting bracket. This bracket is straight, threaded on the inside to go through a D-pillar bracket with a nut to mount. In your photo, the D-pillar looks very similar to our 19-20 but I don't see your D-pillar brackets. I can post a photo of our D-pillar brackets and fender mounting bracket if you would like.

Thanks for posting all of the photos.

Good Luck,
Terry Miller


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fordorgalore
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:55 pm

Thank you Terry, I do have the "D" pillar bracket and fender mount. I just haven't gotten to that point yet. I really appreciate your offer!! Happy New Year !! :)


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fordorgalore
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:39 pm

A few more pictures...
Attachments
IMG_20191231_160300677.jpg
IMG_20191231_160103203.jpg
IMG_20191231_160047804.jpg


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Dallas Landers » Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:15 pm

C'mon Don! Your making me look bad! It took me two years to finish my TT!
Never mind, technicly tomorrow is the second year. :D
Looking great!

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perry kete
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by perry kete » Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:33 pm

Your wife is doing a fantastic job

Happy New Year

I can't send M& M's because you haven't given me your address
1922 Coupe & 1927 Touring


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fordorgalore
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:22 pm

Cleaning and lubing the door latches. The passenger side is brass cast handle with the letter "Z" stamped on it. The drivers side is cast iron with the name "JOS N SMITH & CO Detroit 5119 ". Just curious as to which one would be correct?
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IMG_20200102_121553146.jpg


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fordorgalore
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:17 pm

I just had a very interesting phone call from Hap Tucker. The information was incredible and nothing but kind words and advise. Thank you so much Hap for taking the time and having the interest. This centerdoor raises more questions than answers and Hap is kindly willing to help. Good people make it a good hobby !!


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fordorgalore
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:31 am

Eureka !! Found this on the original piece of the rear seat riser. Anyone have any knowledge of this ID plate? I know I don't....
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IMG_20200103_082705389.jpg


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fordorgalore
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:50 pm

Hap Tucker's 1915 Centerdoor. The owner was kind enough to measure the pillars and they do indeed have a flair at the top.
Attachments
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81070029_10215096717517717_3777107730318229504_n.jpg


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fordorgalore
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:04 pm

Some more pictures of Hap's 1915, Robert was very gracious with providing me the pictures. Note the massive "A" pillars on that beast. It settles my worries about how mine was working out, or lack of working out.
Attachments
hap5_n.jpg
hap4_n.jpg
hap3_n.jpg
hap2n.jpg
hap1_n.jpg


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fordorgalore
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:23 pm

Thanks to Robert we have solid proof that Ford did indeed make early 1916 brass centerdoors !
Attachments
brass16a-1.JPG
brass16b -1.JPG
brass16 1.JPG
81621172_10215110018410231_7301485909763948544_n.jpg
81314919_10215110017570210_3734160934986317824_n.jpg

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perry kete
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by perry kete » Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:46 pm

They are a beautiful car in my opinion and when I become rich and famous like you Don I'll try to buy one.

How is the build coming? Any recent pictures?
1922 Coupe & 1927 Touring


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fordorgalore
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:51 pm

Hey Dennis, I worked on the front cowl this morning and starting building the rear seat riser. I didn't take any pictures today but once there is some noticeable change I will. Thanks for your interest. db


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:00 pm

Finally and at last! Maybe the question of whether or not such '16 models were built can be put to rest.
I do not fault Bruce McCalley in any way whatsoever. He did as much as anyone, and WAY more than most, in furthering research into the model T's history! That he was never able to find solid evidence to the early existence of 1916 model center-doors was not a fault. It was a fact of the dismal state of the recorded history when he started his quest. I got interested in researching the history early on because of the obvious idiocy of many things I was being told by people that thought they knew the T's history (like the fellow that swore the '14 rear end in his '23 runabout was the factory original!). Bruce did say in some of his writings that he had not yet seen anything that proved a '16 style center-door sedan was built by Ford. He did not say that there was any certainty that they were NOT built. Unfortunately, a lot of people assumed that he said they were NOT built and ran with that assumption.
These images posted are the best I have seen showing the '16 style car in sales literature. I had seen several images many years ago that indicated such a '16 was offered, and therefore likely built. However those previously seen images were not detailed enough to be sure of the differences between the two years.
I do wonder, and ask, is there anything on the original literature piece (or source?) that clearly gives a date? Would those be an early '16 model year piece? Or a later '16 model year piece? One of the pieces I saw years ago showed what looked to be the '16 style center-door sedan, and was dated August of 1915. So that always made me believe that the '16 style was offered very early in the '16 model year.


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fordorgalore
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:56 pm

Wayne I haven't found a date on the brochure, I was going by the brass front end and the gas tank under the drivers seat. This actually came from the owner of Hap Tucker's 1915. Robert has been extremely helpful answering my questions about the pillars and such. He sent this via FaceBook to me and I just about filled my Depends !! It has the identical interior design as my early '16. And as just dumb luck would have it the dimensions on his "A" pillars and the amount of taper ….. I was within a 1/16" match at the top and bottom. No brag, just fact. ;)


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:04 pm

Don B, I have never been into golf. However, working in cutting edge electronics and communications systems, quite a few years ago, I was privileged to be watching the live uplink across the (then new) satellite in real time as Tiger Woods was finishing a round on some (I don't think I knew then what major "open" or whatever?) heavily publicized game being played at Pebble Beach. In the midst of the game, a major storm blew in. Heavy rains, winds at about or above 40 mph, officials were ready to suspend play as soon as the hole was completed. As I was adjusting equipment on my receivers, I suddenly got the feeling that something amazing was about to happen. (Please forgive my improper word choices here, I really do not know golf!) Tiger W had made a long shot, and the ball landed in a sand (trap? bunker?) with a small dirt embankment between the ball and the hole with the flag in it. The distance was short, less than ten feet I think. But there were many obstacles.The ball was sitting in sand, a mound of dirt over a foot high, ridiculous winds, uneven and wet ground. It was cold, I am sure he was shivering, wind and water in his eyes. He took his time. The "announcers" quietly commentating about the impossibility of the situation, and yet how important this hole was to his score. This went on for quite a few minutes. As I continued adjustments to my equipment, I listened for what wouldn't surprise me if it was more than five minutes. Then Tiger took his stance. A gentle (I think it may be called a "chip" shot?) shot and the ball rose up from the sand. Landed near the top of the dirt embankment, rolled several feet down the uneven ground against the wind and straight into the hole (cup?)!!!

Virtually every news station and program in the country showed a thirty second or less clip of that shot! Most of them dozens of times! But if you didn't see the whole thing? You didn't get to really see how incredible it really was!

What it really was, was a master of his craft, under very tough conditions, taking the time, sizing the problem up to the fullest. Calculating every inch of the shot in his mind, and chipping the ball into the best place he could figure to reach a nearly impossible goal. And THAT Don B, is what you did.


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Robert Kiefaber » Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:18 am

Here is a video I Made a few years ago about my theories on why I believed I had an original 1916 steel bodied Centerdoor sedan. I no longer own this car but I still have the 15 and 21. https://youtu.be/mEYmXhDtpLE


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fordorgalore
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:11 am

This is just so cool, thanks to Robert for sharing his video and the pamphlet. Wayne, I can only ask questions of the experts and rely on what I am told. But this "mystery solved" credit goes to Mr. Kiefaber ! Wither it is enough to satisfy everyone time will tell. I can now proceed with my project without the worry that its all wishful thinking on my part. Truly having fun on this journey and the history lesson is priceless ! Thanks again guys~


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fordorgalore
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:16 pm

Working on the top rails and checking the distance of the overhang. I'm using the rain gutter for a guide on both. The gutter seems to be happy about it. Still NOTHING is fastened or finished here. Just having fun with it. ;)
Attachments
IMG_20200107_151005062.jpg
IMG_20200107_150940758.jpg


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:47 pm

Looking good!

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Rich Eagle
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Rich Eagle » Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:37 pm

It's not only the talent and perseverance to do this project but taking time to shoot great photos that makes this so wonderful to me. These can be so beneficial to others that follow. Denny and others shared their Coupe photos when I was struggling with mine. It was such a wealth of information.
And just plain fun to see the progress.
Thanks again for these.
Rich
When did I do that?


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fordorgalore
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:20 am

Thank you Rich, this is my favorite part of these restores. So after working on the "A" pillars and front header and top rails, I thought I should probably check my work again. It appears I am having a good start to a brand new day !! :D
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IMG_20200109_080410454.jpg
IMG_20200109_080354661_MP.jpg
IMG_20200109_080335987.jpg

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perry kete
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by perry kete » Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:27 am

Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in a while! :roll: :roll:
1922 Coupe & 1927 Touring


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fordorgalore
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:16 am

Well tank you Mr. Kerry Peke !! So, after a long discussion of this project with Tom Snyder he came up with the exact splash apron needed for this 104 year old questioned piece of Ford history. A big thanks to Tom for his patience with me !!
Attachments
IMG_20200109_085507892.jpg
IMG_20200109_085518275.jpg
IMG_20200109_085455560.jpg
IMG_20200109_084839310.jpg
IMG_20200109_084811221.jpg


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Jim Sims » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:27 am

Don, I question your splash aprons. Should they not have a bump out in the rear to clear the brake rods? My 17 has this and I understand the 15 and 16 also should have this.


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fordorgalore
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:16 am

Hi Jim, I just have the aprons clamped on with the rear fender and there seems to be plenty of clearance. I also looked at pictures of Hap Tuckers old '15 and that doesn't have any hump on the splash aprons that I can see. So I checked out other said '16's picture and no noticeable hump. But, if you feel this is incorrect I will do some asking around and see what comes up. Thank you !!

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CudaMan
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by CudaMan » Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:25 pm

The MTFCI Judging Standards, Seventh Edition, says that splash shields (aprons) for 1915 had an "Embossed Curve" at the back end.

For 1916, it says that splash shields (aprons) had an "Embossed Curve" at the back end and that by August 1916 the shield was modified to follow the lines of the new crowned fenders (whatever that means).

For 1917, it says that the stamping for the "Embossed Curve" was eliminated around August of 1917.


According to the MTFCA Encyclopedia:

1912-1916
Aprons now tapered gently to the rear fender from a point about 10” from the rear fender, reducing the apparent bulge.
1913-1916
4815
4814 1408C
1409C L/H
R/H
4815B
4814B 7497
7496 L/H 1915 Sedans
R/H

1917-1923
Similar to 1916 but patterned to fit new fenders. In early 1917 the aprons were modified to smoothly taper from front to rear, with no bulge at the rear.

Hope this helps. :)
Mark Strange
Hillsboro, MO
1924 Cut-off Touring (now a pickup)


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Jim Sims » Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:45 pm

DSCN0003_02.JPG
;These photos should show these splash aprons,
The attachment DSCN0001_01.JPG is no longer available
DSCN0003_02.JPG


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:57 pm

Reproduction side aprons have never been made exactly correct. It isn't something that needs to be really concerned about. No restored T using reproduction side aprons is really right, which means most '15/'16 Ts we get to see on tours and shows. Those actually look closer to correct than most of them are. Just a part of the real world we live in.
That '16 c-door is looking better and better!


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fordorgalore
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:57 pm

The aprons have the same shape as Jim shows. I will try to get a good picture of it. I do have to say it isn't as defined as Jim's.


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fordorgalore
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:04 pm

Two days making these little floorboard risers !! TWO DAYS !!!!! Nine Billion and 3 angles to cut and match. Snippy little boogers ! Keep in mind nothing is fastened or absolute with this ole gal yet. Just having fun with it. Oh, that's 9,000,000,003 !!!
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IMG_20200111_155654627.jpg

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perry kete
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by perry kete » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:42 pm

Looking Good! Time for an M&M's break ;)
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Dallas Landers » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:01 pm

Looks like a brain teaser. Im watching in awe.


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:26 pm

I am munching on M&Ms as I read this!

Hello,my name is Wayne, and I am a chocoholic.

Looking good Don B !
All those little details can take SO-O much time, yet can be quite satisfying to get right!


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fordorgalore
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:56 am

Just a heads-up, slot head screws are getting a bit tough to find. I ended up driving 30 miles to Prime Fasteners Inc and they hardly had any. They did have a couple boxes of slot head brass screws so I had no choice. The fella said they will become "special order" very shortly. I decided to clean their shelf off. Wasn't a cheap thing to do...


Dallas Landers
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Dallas Landers » Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:41 am

Don, I find them at yard sales and roadside "junk" stores. They are tuff to find and then you have to strip the plating off the new ones. The details make the job for me. I was luck with the TT project and had a wood box of screws given to me by a 76 year old friend. His father and grandfather were carpenters and saved everything. The box was theirs. He said in 30 years he used a hand full and told me to keep the box. Doesnt take much to make my day!


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:14 pm

On to the tuning stage. Thought I would check the fit of the cowl and front side panels. I'm thinking this is about as good as its going to get. Still nothing is fastened in the final sense.
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:50 pm

Got this picture in the mail today from my friend Dan Killicut Syracuse Ny. Looks to be a early '16 !! Opinions ??
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16cdoora-1.JPG


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:04 pm

Don

asking this group for opinions is like asking a dog for fleas. You're gonna get 'em. :lol:
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Luke » Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:53 pm

Don, is that photo of Dan Killicut's family?

I thought I'd try a quick cleanup to see how it would come out...

Sepia, as original but with a few areas 'fixed' and general spot repairs etc

16cdoora-4.jpg

B&W

16cdoora-5.jpg

A bit further on B&W

16cdoora-6.jpg

And, cleaned up this way, back to sepia (of sorts)

16cdoora-7.jpg
Last edited by Luke on Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:07 pm, edited 4 times in total.


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:00 pm

Looks like a '16 to me! Not only that, in this picture, you can see what type of bracket holds the sidelamps, and how it angles down from up high.


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by John Page » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:40 pm

Hello Don,

I guess that you would be aware of this firm in the USA. They seem to have a good supply of hard to obtain Bolts & Srews etc.

( Link ) http://www.blacksmithbolt.com/

Best regards, John.
Attachments
Countersink Head Wood Screws.png


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:23 pm

Thank you John !! It's bookmarked. I appreciate your help as always !!

Wayne, I think this picture is an exact match of a early '16. My '16 has the exact windshield setup. I'm not sure but those rear fenders don't look flat to me? The flat '15's have a different look to them...

Luke, thank you cleaning the picture up !! This is the best source and the only source of information I have received yet. That includes a dozen of vintage car groups on FaceBook.

Just have to say thanks to all of you for the help you've given me on all the projects I have done. It is a wonderful thing.... :)


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:47 am

I do think those rear fenders are a "flat curve" as opposed to a compound curve or "crowned" fender. Depending upon the angle of the photograph, it can sometimes be very difficult to tell the difference. However, being one to study so many original era photos, as well as photos of current cars for sale, I think does give me an edge. The nice thing about current car for sale listings is being able to see numerous differing views of the same fender. There have been many times that I would look at a view of a fender on a car, and wonder whether it was crowned or flat curved. Then see another view, and know for certain. Given the slight angle between the camera and the fender, there should be some amount of the middle area showing. I think it is not enough showing to be a later crowned fender.
I have told in the past that one of the rear fenders for my runabout I bought from a listing in eBad. It was a typical badly worded listing, doesn't know what year it is, knows nothing about it, with a couple lousy pictures taken from bad angles. I happened upon it with only about twenty minutes to go, one low bid already on it, no time for a question and answer. Studied the couple pictures and kept telling myself I "think" it is a '15/'16 but???? I really could not be sure, but I needed that side rear fender. So, I took a chance, put in a marginally low bid and hoped. I did not know for sure until it arrived by UPS. I would not have been pleased if it had been a later crowned fender I did not need nor want (and already had a couple I didn't need!). However, when it arrived, it was the '16 fender I thought it was, and would have been willing to pay somewhat more for if I had known. I suspect it would have gone a lot higher if the seller had known what it was and listed it properly.


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:13 am

Wayne, you are right its very hard to tell wishful thinking on my "parts". The picture shows the amount of overhang of the top on the front side windows and above the windshield. This pleases me because it confirms what I found after using the rain gutter as a guide. The other interesting find was the wood wrap from the lower part of the rear windows up to the top. It does appear to be wider at the bottom and taper slightly to the top and tilts back at the top. This again is what I concluded using the rear window panel and matching the seam at the beltline. I know my work won't be absolutely correct but it is ending up pretty close. My thanks to Dan Killecut for his thoughtfulness in providing this wonderful reference.


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:20 am

A closer look at the rear window wood....
Attachments
ceedoor1.JPG


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Luke » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:30 pm

Don,

Please excuse me if it's of no use to you but here's a couple of similar views from a local car that appeared yesterday.

Year is prob your 1919 equivalent so may not be the same (I've no idea of any differences!), but if you want any other views please let me know and I'll see what I can do.

centredoor_rhs_rear1.png
centredoor_rhs_rear1.png (101.79 KiB) Viewed 9235 times
centredoor_rhs_rear2.png
centredoor_rhs_rear2.png (54.37 KiB) Viewed 9235 times


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:22 pm

Hi Luke, the dilemma I am having with the rear window is this. The "D" pillar has to be wide enough for the window. The metal skin around the tub and the oval rear window will only come together with a certain amount of tilt. The belt line trim has to follow the rear window skin. So, when its all fitted I get the similar if not exact shape as the 1915 rear widow trim. Its wider at the belt line and tapers off as it reaches the top of the rear side window. The picture of Hap Tuckers 1915 is what I have with this early '16. I am open to suggestions or corrections but this is what I have found.
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:33 pm

Still fussing and fitting.
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:15 am

Somehow, I am thinking of a skeleton at the Halloween Black and White Ball?


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:22 am

Just finished nailing the steel to the framing. So far, so good on the fitment. I'm doing the fitting from the bottom up. Without patterns this just seemed to make the most sense. So the doors are set and I can get to work on the top next. I will save the body work for down the road.
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:24 am

A few more pictures....
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:16 pm

Amazing how fast you are, and with doing such a daunting puzzle!
What can I say? But again it is looking SO-O nice!


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by mtntee20 » Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:09 pm

Don,

She is looking FANTASTIC! You're doing a great job.

I have a couple questions: The white smears at some joints, is that the 3M 5200 adhesive? and Second: The window lift belt retainers/clips you have installed, are they new or did you have them from the old body? If they are new, where did you get them? I do not have any of them and will need them when I try to replicate your rebuild perfection.

Thank You for sharing and answering questions.

Good Luck,
Terry

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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by perry kete » Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:27 pm

WOW! That looks fantastic! I can't wait to see videos of that on the road. It is amazing what some guys will do for a bag of M&M's.
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:57 pm

Thank you guys I appreciate the kind words !! MtnTee20 those are all original except one. I had to make it from scratch but it wasn't a big deal. They all look new because I painted them with Rustbullet Automotive Gray.


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:54 am

Terry, yes the white smears is 5200. I used it on all the wood joints, a little dab will do ya. Someday long after I'm gone someone will cuss the fact they have to deal with it, but oh well. :D


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:19 am

Starting to layout the top on this 104 yr ole jalopy.
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by perry kete » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:22 am

How many hours have you put in so far on this project?
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Mon Jan 27, 2020 11:22 am

I don't know Mr. Seth, I don't keep track. I have worked on it everyday and enjoyed every minute. So, it just ain't work, just fun. :D


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:20 pm

The top wood is going pretty good so far. I made some headliner staple guides out of 1/8" RV scrap paneling. This really makes it easy to install the headliner and get a nice clean straight line.
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by perry kete » Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:29 pm

I like the idea of the headliner edging. This project is moving right along.

Just think how nice it would be if you knew what you were doing! :? :?


You know I'm just kidding with you...I can't ruin my reputation by always being nice!
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:42 pm

No worries D Kete! Most of us will never think of you as anything but absolutely rotten ;) .

And I don't know about Don B, but I think if i really knew what I was doing? I would probably run screaming into the night!!


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Dallas Landers » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:15 pm

That is some fine looking craftsmanship ! Maybe someday I will be brave enough to try something like that. I had a friend ask if I would build all the wood for a couplet. He has sheetmetal for two bodies. He asked after seeing my TT. I told him I didnt have that kind of time to devote to a project like that. Your speed and detail on this project is amazing to me.


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Billdizer,Spencer In » Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:02 pm

Don, I am in awe of your knowledge of T's and your woodworking skills! I have followed several of your builds! While I have been a mechanic for over 45 years, I have no wood working skills! If possible, in all your "spare" time, could you include some photos of your woodworking shop and tooling? I suspect there are other followers of your posts that would be interested in seeing it. Thanks for sharing your skills!

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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Ed Baudoux » Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:32 am

Billdizer, prepare to be amazed. The genius in Don's work is not in his tooling, it's between his ears, just behind his forehead. He's the world's shortest giant!
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Herb Iffrig » Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:01 am

I was pleased to see slot headed screws in the above photo. That is attention to detail. Quite often these days you will see Phillips head screws even in places that show! The above screws won't even be seen until someday another caretaker might need to do work there.


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:44 am

Thanks Ed, but my head is swollen now.... So, today I decided to begin the top skin. I'm not sure if I have enough curve in the top. What do you think?
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:45 am

More pic's....
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Bob McDaniel » Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:59 pm

Don,

I have followed this thread from the start and my hat is off to you. I feel I can not post in Steve's thread about what I have done to my Model T because the only thing I have done this month is watch you build this body from almost nothing to an amazing car. With that said, I had to jump in here on your top and don't want to be picky and maybe I am wrong but shouldn't the wood for the roof be thin strips like the lath boards in plaster wall? I know they will be covered but so will most of this wood and it might be better to use plywood but I think I would have used the strips. Still a great build so far and I hope we have it done in time for summer so I can have time to mow the yard :D
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:04 am

Bob McD, I may not be the best expert on these, but I did do quite a bit of research on the earlier center-door sedans about 25 years ago. As I understand it, basically, no restored c-door today has a roof built as they were in the '10s. The body suppliers (there were two or three of them for the c-door) used a formed roof piece made out of something similar to Masonite. It was similar to what some body suppliers sold to other automobile manufacturers in the early '10s, that became known as "the paper mache' " bodies. I believe that a couple models of Reo, and I have heard of one surviving Cartercar that used such bodies. Survivors of such cars are quite rare, because they simply didn't hold up well in the weather regardless of where they were. The same issue affected the center-door sedans. Most of them, the roof began to go bad after only a few years, while the car was still new enough that many owners had a local top shop (nearly every town over a few hundred people had one) repair the car's roof. Usually that repair involved replacing the formed paperboard with some other conventional replacement, including standard top material (either grained or smooth). Many times the top shop or past owner added rain gutters, sometimes not.

The Ford center-door top piece had the rain gutter formed as a part of the roof. And the roof was smooth and quite shiny! While good era photographs actually looking down onto the roof of a c-door are rare, I have seen a couple of them over the years. I heard of one car surviving in Califunny about fifteen years ago, but I never saw it, or any other myself. In a past discussion on this forum, I think two people chimed in that (at that time) owned a c-door with the original roof. So I guess there are a few of them around yet.
Restorers usually just redo the top as repaired by some top shop or past owner. When I restored my '16, that was what I did. Mine was a nicely intact body, with a still nice paint job from a '50s "restoration", so redoing the top was easy. Don B has a much tougher row to hoe, cannot replace the top exactly like original, and no real "right" way to do it.


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:37 am

I do wish I had more detailed information on this. But nothing seems to be out there. Here is a picture of the C-door tops and I am using it for what its worth.
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topa.jpg


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Russ T Fender » Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:00 am

My original '22 Centerdoor still has the composition roof material which has sagged over the cross bow supports but is still functional. I coated it with Flex-seal to keep it waterproof as the top material was alligatored. It really did a good job of filling in the crackled surface to make the top waterproof. I don't know if the assembly On my car is the same as the earlier cars but it sounds like they continued that feature until the end of production. Because the material is subject to sagging it allows depressions to form between the support bows that collect water despite the curve in the roof.
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by perry kete » Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:09 pm

Applying that flex seal also makes the car defy gravity so you can park it on any hill side! :lol:
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Russ T Fender » Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:34 pm

It's actually the gum rubber tires!

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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Bob McDaniel » Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:43 pm

I thought it was called "Flubber"

Thanks Don for clearing that up for me, I know you have done a lot of research on this car while my limited research is from other old cars and trucks I have seen with original tops and some "restored" with chicken wire for a roof! I was not aware of the way they did the Centerdoor tops and thought it would have been more like the 2 door sedan tops. Looks like I was wrong on that one! Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Now its time to get back to the build, they say we might hit 50 Sunday so I need to sharpen those mower blades!
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Allan » Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:29 am

Don, the photo of the centre doors in the factory production line is interesting. The tops on those bodies look much more curved, both from the front to back, and more noticeably from side to side. Those tops have quite a considerable compound curve. Perhaps the original cardboard/masonite material could be massaged to conform to that shape, but I cannot see a sheet of plywood doing the same. The curve front to back may be easily achieved, but the side to side curve not so. If you clamp it down that will add to the load on the rather spindly cross pieces, making them loose the curve cut into them.
But in the scheme of things, it probably is not important to the function of the top. Some fullness can be added by including a padding material under whatever top material you use. Over the timber slat tops I make on wooden bodies, I use 1/4" dacron sheeting from a quilting supplies shop. It is thin enough not to make the top look padded, but does make the slats disappear on the finished top.
I am in awe of your work on the framing. I had a complete set of original patterns when I did my wide body roadster, and that was hard enough. Your project is many orders of magnitude more challenging and difficult than mine. Well done.

Allan from down under.


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:56 am

Allen, take a good look at the left row and the third and fifth tops. They look flatter to me. If you really look at the line there are differences or at least "appear" to be differences. It could be just the camera effect, I don't know...


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Lessumner » Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:23 am

Don, This is my 1920 sedan roof. I used Masonite to cover the bows. It took the compound curves nicely. It is sealed with West Systems epoxy and sanded ready for primer and gloss black paint. No padding or covering as original. Les
1920 Ford sedan roof.jpg


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:13 am

Les, i'm doing basically the same thing. Just that i'm using 1/4" marine plywood. It takes the bows nicely without any downward pressure but I do cut it oversize and let it find its own path. Then the fiberglass matting and WEST and she should last another 100yrs.

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Mark Gregush
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Mark Gregush » Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:39 pm

I knew about the Masonite but thought it was just used as a support for the top material. Interesting!
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

1921 Huckster
1925 Cut down pickup


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fordorgalore
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:41 pm

Ok, so the rear seat riser was a puzzle. The huge gap at the end of the riser kick panel needed something. I looked at Hap's '15 and noticed what appeared to be end caps to fill the gap and hide the deep fender well. I had the original riser kick panel for a pattern but, do you think I'm close with this? Is there something I'm missing here? The original riser kick panel was 3" short on both ends of covering the steel wheel well...
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jiminbartow
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by jiminbartow » Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:09 am

Wow. Regarding the before photos at the beginning of this thread... The former owner must have majored in “Woodworking with a Hatchet, 101”. Definitely should have invested in a table saw, chopsaw and jigsaw and a how-to book on how to use them.

At least he tried to keep it as original as he was capable of doing and didn’t chop it into a hot rod. For that, I am grateful to him. Now it is in very capable hands. Jim Patrick


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by KLTagert » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:27 am

Don, the most educational thread on the forum.
It’s gone from “ restore T 101” to “Advanced Centerdoor theory, design and rebuild” a for PhD.
It’s an education that keeps me checking / comparing things on my ‘21 Centerdoor with original wavey top.
Anxious to see this beauty start up and take its maiden voyage in its new outfit. With a bag of M&Ms accompanying you.


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fordorgalore
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:50 am

Thank you Kathy and Jim, my friend from down under Warwick Landy may have the best explanation. He suggested that this seat riser may have been sized for the earlier rear gas tank. It may be a conversion from the rear tank to the seat tank. It makes sense to me but I need input from others if this car is going to have any historical accuracy to it. Please help me get this right~


Wayne Sheldon
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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:16 pm

I have said before, but do not mind saying again. That my "supposedly" real early '16 center-door sedan and a good friend's "supposedly" real early '16 Canadian center-door sedan were the only two center-door sedans I looked at (and I looked at about twenty of all years!) with a rear seat riser like ours had. His Canadian sedan still had its original under-the-rear-seat gasoline tank still installed from the Canadian factory! (A previous owner had installed a front seat and tank from a later center-door sedan because of the fuel flow issues in that rear seat tank.) The hypothesis at the time was that his of course did have the gasoline tank under the rear seat originally, and my car's body was early enough that it followed the pattern of the real '15s and the rear seat was set up to carry the gasoline tank before the change to the front seat made that unnecessary.
Unfortunately, I do not have any photos of the rear seat, or drawings of how the riser was different from anything that followed. So I cannot help out much on getting this detail right. I simply do not remember enough of the detail either. I was quite displeased with the two owners that followed, and mostly put the car out of my mind after I sold it.

All in all? I would say you are on the right track!


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:20 pm

The one minor detail I do remember, different from how you did yours? The upright lip that keeps the seat cushion from sliding forward on mine was a simple piece of strap steel.


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Re: '16 Centerdoor restore...

Post by fordorgalore » Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:40 pm

Yes Wayne, those bookends are coming out. I just got off the phone with Mike Husted and he found a picture of a 1916 that clearly shows carpet covering the gap. Oh well, not a big deal to make it right and that's why I rely on the good folks that know. Here is the picture Mike found. What a wonderful friend to have, I can't say enough about that guy.
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