Warford Support Bracket ?

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules

Topic author
2nighthawks
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:53 am
First Name: Harold
Last Name: Schwendeman
Location: Seattle
MTFCA Number: 0
Board Member Since: 2005

Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by 2nighthawks » Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:46 pm

Some time ago, I bought a '26 Model T Touring, that was equipped with an iron case Warford auxiliary transmission. It's a very nice set up, and the car drives well, however, I haven't driven the car much, because I am of the opinion the Warford definitely needs some additional support with all of that additional weight hanging out behind the Ford planetary transmission and what I believe to be a "LOT" of strain on those "flimsy" stamped rear engine mounts that must support all that weight! I know that there is a Warford support bracket that is available from "T" parts vendors (Lang's I believe), and I am wondering, now that THAT particular support bracket has been available for quite some time now, how it has worked out for whoever is using one(?) I have put off buying and installing this particular support bracket, not only because it is quite expensive, but because I am not quite sure how well this item has worked out for whoever might have installed one. I may be all wrong here, but I have this idea that I can't get out of my head, that under some conditions, that Warford Support Bracket, in the long run, just might do more harm than good! Here's what I mean:

Altho' we drive on much better roads now than the rough conditions that existed back in Model T days, I believe that there are conditions that still do cause considerable flexing/twisting of the very flexible Model T frame. For instance, turning into a steep uphill gas station entrance ramp at a very odd angle. I honestly feel that situations similar to this, with the Warford support bracket available from "T" parts suppliers installed, there could be extreme forces transmitted to the Ford planetary transmission, the frame, and, especially those two rear engine mounts that are attached to the stamped sheet metal crankcase with rivits & brazing! Also, possibly forces that just might contribute to a broken crankshaft!

Anyway, am I "over-thinking" this, or does what I've tried to explain make any sense?

Again, I guess I'm mostly wondering if anybody else has any thoughts on this, and for anybody that has installed the very expensive commercially available Warford Support Bracket,....how has this worked out for you? Again, I'm just thinking that even with the rubber mount cushions on this support bracket, the bracket just might still be too rigid and it might be that something simpler to just provide a bit of lifting/weight support for the back end of the Warford might be all that is needed, and just might even be better! Anybody,....???

Thanks in advance for anybody's thoughts on this,.....harold

User avatar

Henry K. Lee
Posts: 2205
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:09 am
First Name: Henry
Last Name: Lee
Location: South Pittsburg, TN
MTFCA Life Member: YES

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by Henry K. Lee » Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:55 pm

You definitely need a rear support. Those cast iron ones will cause damage in the long term. I do make them but currently very busy. Can make some up possibly in the spring. You may check with the vendors.

Hope this Helps,

Hank

User avatar

Mark Gregush
Posts: 1692
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
First Name: Mark
Last Name: Gregush
Location: Portland Or
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by Mark Gregush » Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:05 pm

You CAN NOT JUST BOLT THE CAST IRON WARFORD TO THE BACK OF THE TRANSMISSION without modifications done to the input shaft on it or having the coupling between it and the transmission. While it will bolt up, the input shaft on the Worford is smaller then the hole in the output shaft on the transmission. Besides that, the cast iron Warford is too much weight to hang off the back end anyway.
Here is a case of what happens when that is done;
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=272030
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :roll:

1921 Huckster
1925 Cut down pickup


Mike Lebsack-Iowa
Posts: 135
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:22 pm
First Name: Mike
Last Name: Lebsack
Location: Iowa
Board Member Since: 2008

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by Mike Lebsack-Iowa » Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:30 pm

Hi Mark,
I just sent you an email but mistakenly called you Greg instead of Mark. I think I have what you need. Mike


Mike Lebsack-Iowa
Posts: 135
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:22 pm
First Name: Mike
Last Name: Lebsack
Location: Iowa
Board Member Since: 2008

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by Mike Lebsack-Iowa » Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:34 pm

Oops, meant to send to 2nighthawks. Sorry Mark! Mike

User avatar

RajoRacer
Posts: 1097
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:18 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Tomaso
Location: Longbranch, WA
MTFCA Number: 14972
MTFCI Number: 15411
Board Member Since: 2001

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by RajoRacer » Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:12 pm

Harold - get a hold of Gary London - he posts on here once in a while - he manufactured a dandy auxiliary transmission hanger kit - not expensive either !


Topic author
2nighthawks
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:53 am
First Name: Harold
Last Name: Schwendeman
Location: Seattle
MTFCA Number: 0
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by 2nighthawks » Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:57 pm

Well,......!!! Hi there Steve! Ya' post an "inquiry" and who knows who ya' might hear from, right? How ya' doin' Steve?

"Auxiliary" transmission hanger kit"! And "inexpensive" too, huh? Sounds like just what I'm probably looking for Steve! And you and I talked about this Warford support thing some time ago, and as I recall, you and I seemed to have pretty much the same ideas as to what's needed,....flexible support, but not too rigid as I recall. And when you say,..."it's a dandy",....coming from you,....I'm definitely encouraged,....thanks so much for the tip Steve!

And thanks to all of you other "T" guys too for the response,.....harold


modeltbarn
Posts: 124
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:59 pm
First Name: Gary
Last Name: London
Location: Camarillo

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by modeltbarn » Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:49 pm

I'm here, I've just been swamped with retirement stuff, too little time!

The brackets I make are made to fit the aluminum KC Warford, and with a slight change in the drilling they will fit an original aluminum case Warford. I've got a couple of those made up that fit cars, and one or two made up for a TT. Those are $200 shipped USPS flat rate, and I can fit a couple in one box. They're $175 if I don't need to ship them.

I'm pretty sure I can make one up for a cast iron case if I can get some pictures and dimensions from you.


Dropacent
Posts: 978
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:39 am
First Name: Tim
Last Name: Morsher
Location: Norwalk Ohio

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by Dropacent » Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:08 pm

Here are a couple ideas if you are a do-it-yourselfer. These are for the Chicago but same idea.
D2FAC26E-C416-4107-B60F-E780AD098F2F.jpeg
6316D309-1610-42E2-9A59-324E145F250D.png
08A1CA78-AFA2-48F4-899F-CD810E6B7B2D.jpeg


Allan
Posts: 1013
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
First Name: Allan
Last Name: Bennett
Location: Gawler, Australia

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by Allan » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:10 pm

I made my own using a front frame cross member, to fit my KC Warford. It is spring loaded too, and that spring is adjustable to vary the the support offered. By spring loading the mounting/support, wracking in the frame can still go on with no detrimental effect.

Allan from down under.

User avatar

Mark Gregush
Posts: 1692
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
First Name: Mark
Last Name: Gregush
Location: Portland Or
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by Mark Gregush » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:28 pm

Mike no problem about email. I saw it after reading the post here.
I am going to say that before you all get gung-ho on a brace you might want to read my post. People have hang the CAST IRON Warford off the back of the transmission but there is a FITMENT issue between the two parts without the in between coupling if some changes have not been made to the input shaft.
If you don't know what I am talking about google "mtfca; warford" you will fine lots of information maybe even some photos of transmissions that have broke the back out of the hogs head.
By the way, the cast iron Warford mounts from the top. Any braces used under it to support it would have to just cradle as there are no mounting holes. The 3 bolt heads you see on the back and front support the cluster gear shaft and bearings. If you take those out you could end up breaking the seal between them and the case and have a real mess on your hands. AS I recall they are not blind holes so at minimum, you could have lube leaking out.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :roll:

1921 Huckster
1925 Cut down pickup


d stroud
Posts: 729
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:45 am
First Name: David
Last Name: Stroud
Location: Mound City, MO. 64470
Board Member Since: 2011

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by d stroud » Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:49 am

For anyone tempted to drill holes in the frame to mount a support (of any kind), pay attention to the pictures that Clayton posted, about as simple of a method that I have ever seen. By the way, Clayton, where have you been? :) Dave
1925 mostly original coupe.

User avatar

Mark Gregush
Posts: 1692
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
First Name: Mark
Last Name: Gregush
Location: Portland Or
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by Mark Gregush » Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:10 pm

Some quick photos of how I mounted my cast iron Warford. It was painted silver when I got it so repainted same color.
From the front, notched for exhaust pipe.
DSCF7358.JPG
I notched the cross bar and used wood filler in it to add strength and fill the void, this way the metal cross channel is not rubbing top of case.
DSCF7359.JPG
Shots of L brackets at the ends
DSCF7361.JPG
DSCF7366.JPG
DSCF7367.JPG
You will note the hole just above the Warford case. I at first got it backwards and had to redrill from the other side. There needs to be a place for the shift rail to go into in the cross channel for one of the two. The original Warford support had this.
I am going to ask a real to the point question, is it a cast iron 3 speed Warford or are you using Warford as a general term? Kinda like some people calling ALL outside brakes Rocky Mountain.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :roll:

1921 Huckster
1925 Cut down pickup


Tom Hicks
Posts: 761
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:07 pm
First Name: Thomas
Last Name: Hicks
Location: Chesterfield, VA
MTFCA Number: 32518

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by Tom Hicks » Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:51 pm

There was a poster on The Forum who was making support brackets for Warfords. He made them both for T's and TT's. I bought the one for a TT and it fits perfectly. Maybe someone remembers who it was..
Technology, the solution to all of our problems... and the cause of most of them.

User avatar

RajoRacer
Posts: 1097
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:18 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Tomaso
Location: Longbranch, WA
MTFCA Number: 14972
MTFCI Number: 15411
Board Member Since: 2001

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by RajoRacer » Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:15 pm

Was addressed in the discussion above.


Topic author
2nighthawks
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:53 am
First Name: Harold
Last Name: Schwendeman
Location: Seattle
MTFCA Number: 0
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by 2nighthawks » Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:23 pm

Mark - Thanx for the response, explanation and great detail photos. (....and thanx to everybody else that responded too) I really like the fact that your bracket/brace/crossmember (never sure what to call them) is entirely CLAMPED in place, rather than bolted Mark, because I really feel that this is important due to the fact that the Model T frame can, will and should be able to flex. Only thing is, your method sure looks like a lot of work! To answer your question, the Warford that was (and still is) in my '26 touring when I bought it, is in fact, an old ORIGINAL cast iron Warford, with under drive, direct and overdrive. I have no idea exactly how the Warford input shaft is connected/coupled to the output of the Ford planetary, because unfortunately, I bought the car from the widow of the deceased fellow that built the car. Not too sure about the wisdom of installing a 3-speed iron Warford as well as a Ruckstell, but that's what the fellow did, and I have to admit that it drives just fine and all those speeds (gear combinations) really are kinda' fun as well as handy for trailer loading, parades, close and/or tight maneuvering, etc. (.....altho' I don't drive it much because that Warford absolutely MUST have some additional support of some kind!) Thanks again for your input on all this Mark,....I really appreciate it. By the way, I'm sure I'll meet you one of these days, because not only is Portland not that far from Seattle, but one of my sons & family just moved to Vancouver, WA. so I imagine I'll be down that way more often now,....thanx again,.....harold

User avatar

Henry K. Lee
Posts: 2205
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:09 am
First Name: Henry
Last Name: Lee
Location: South Pittsburg, TN
MTFCA Life Member: YES

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by Henry K. Lee » Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:33 pm

Harold another simple method is using a pressed steel running board iron. This one is for a 37-38 Chevy transmission mod but you can see quite simple. Installs in the inside frame channel and uses the same wooden blocks as the rear oil pan.

IMG_2196.jpeg
IMG_2195.jpeg
IMG_2194.jpeg

Hope this Helps,

Hank


Topic author
2nighthawks
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:53 am
First Name: Harold
Last Name: Schwendeman
Location: Seattle
MTFCA Number: 0
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by 2nighthawks » Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:40 pm

RajoRacer - Simultaneous typing Steve,....by the way, Gary London did respond, and he says that he thinks he can make a bracket for my IRON Warford, but maybe not 'till Spring. Says that he thinks the only difference from the one he builds for aluminum Warfords is a difference in location of some drilled holes. So,...still "pondering" the whole thing. (???) In the meantime, I see where someone has responded ref. the bracket available from Langs, however,.....pretty "spendy" at $350.00, to say the least, and I'm still not convinced that that particular design might be more than is really necessary, not to mention perhaps too rigid! I'll do "something",....just not too sure what just yet, and thanks again for your "input" too Steve. Always nice to know that your opinions are the result of "experience", and not "JUST" an "OPINION",.....harold


otrcman
Posts: 124
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:25 pm
First Name: Dick
Last Name: Fischer
Location: Arroyo Grande, CA

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by otrcman » Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:27 pm

Mark G. has made two references (Nov 4 and Nov 5) to the safety issue with bolting a Warford directly to the back of the T transmission. But nobody seems to picking up the significance of what he's saying.

There is supposed to be an intermediate housing installed between the front of the Warford and the back of the T transmission. That housing contains a second U-joint. IT REALLY NEEDS TO BE THERE.

As Mark said, the output drive at the back of a T transmission is a square receptacle. The stock T U-joint has a square peg that fits snugly into the hole in the T trans. The Warford (at least on original iron Warfords; I can't swear to the others) has a square peg that looks just like the front of a Ford U-joint. The problem is, the Warford peg is slightly smaller (maybe 1/32" smaller) than what would be on a T U-joint. The Warford peg will slip right into the T transmission, slick as can be. And the car will work just fine. For a while, that is. But eventually the too-small peg will waller out the hole in the transmission and you will lose your connection between transmission and rear wheels.

When the connection fails, you will lose not only low, high, and reverse, but also your brakes. And then you become a cannon ball rolling down hill. I'm not certain if this was failure mode that killed Walt Rosenthal, but the effect was the same. Poor Walt wound up laying on somebody's front lawn, thoroughly dead.

The faulty configuration that I found when I removed my Warford was exactly as described. My Dad had installed the Warford in the late 1970's. After I inherited the car in 1983, Mom commented that he had intended to take the Warford back out. When I asked her why, all she knew was that he had said it wasn't safe. My ears perked up then, but it wasn't until several years later that I heard someone explain exactly what the problem was.

I know it's tough to visualize. Here are some photos that might help.

Top picture is the back of the T transmission; no Warford or driveshaft installed. Sorry I didn't have the foresight to take a pic looking straight at the back, but there is a square receptacle there to receive the front of the U-joint.

Second pic shows the front of a T U-joint. That's the square peg that will go into the back of the trans. And it's the same square peg that is slightly too small on the front of a Warford.

Last pic shows the T U-joint ready to slide into the back of the T transmission. That gap (a little larger gap) is where the Warford would be installed.
Attachments
Back of trans 1.jpg
U-joint housing 1.jpg
Rear end final instl 3.jpg


Topic author
2nighthawks
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:53 am
First Name: Harold
Last Name: Schwendeman
Location: Seattle
MTFCA Number: 0
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by 2nighthawks » Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:12 pm

Dick - Thank you so much for your post with full explanation and great photos! I knew that there needs to be "SOMETHING" additional installed between the Warford and back of the Ford planetary, but never knew until now, just exactly why, or, what it was that was needed! The car is in my garage up on Lopez Island, about a hundred miles (and a ferry ride) away from me, but next time I'm up there, I now know what to look for. If I understand correctly, I should be able to see a cast iron housing, perhaps 4" or 5" inches long, between planetary and Warford. I'm assuming that if I see such a casting, there must be the 2nd universal joint there too,....is that right? Again, thanks so much for your post with great explanation & photos! Here's hoping I don't have to take out the Warford and do a lot more work for proper installation,......harold

User avatar

HornsRus
Posts: 346
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:07 pm
First Name: Charley
Last Name: Shaver
Location: MO

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by HornsRus » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:42 pm

i have an org one to sell if anyone wants one.charley

User avatar

Mark Gregush
Posts: 1692
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
First Name: Mark
Last Name: Gregush
Location: Portland Or
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by Mark Gregush » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:59 am

I can with almost say with complete confidence without even seeing the car, that the coupler is not there. The part of it that mount into the transmission is a ball and socket like the driveshaft. If it were not there the transmission would be hanging down unsupported also the transmission would be trying to rotate as there would be nothing to keep it from turning on it's centers.
There are a lot more truck braces out there and the issue with them is the truck frame side rails are deeper so would have to be mounted under the frame with spacers to get things to line up as I recall. I borrowed one (truck) to get some ideas on how to do it, but wanted the cross bar to sit on the frame not under is so made my own out of what I had on the scrap pile, I did not want to cut up the original one to make it fit.
There is a way to rework the input shaft if it has not been done, but that would require it coming out and the unit taken apart.
If you were to add the coupling shaft, there would be changes to the driveshaft, torque tube and radius rods, they would need to be shorter and would also move the gear shift lever back closer to the seat by several inches. One other thing, when using the coupling the front running board cross brace has to be cut back between the frame rails because the transmission would be now in the same location.
It is all doable.
The aluminum cased 3 speed and 2 speed, the input shaft was sized to fit the output shaft so did not need the coupling housing and was bolted directly to the back.
If it were me, knowing now what I have learned, I would pull the rear end and drop the transmission and check things out. Would be easier then pulling motor.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :roll:

1921 Huckster
1925 Cut down pickup


modeltbarn
Posts: 124
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:59 pm
First Name: Gary
Last Name: London
Location: Camarillo

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by modeltbarn » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:18 pm

Can anyone post pictures of an original bracket for a cast iron Warford? Maybe some of one installed? I've got some time to work on this, and it sounds like a good project. I just don't have a cast iron case Warford or bracket. Are there different bracket styles? Are there different case styles? The ones I make for the KC are designed to support from the bottom, with a cushion, and there is a small bracket that gets bolted to the aluminum case. I don't know if there are similar holes on the cast iron one.

What obstructions do I need to think about? I see the reference to the exhaust pipe, I'm not sure if there are other concerns.

User avatar

RajoRacer
Posts: 1097
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:18 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Tomaso
Location: Longbranch, WA
MTFCA Number: 14972
MTFCI Number: 15411
Board Member Since: 2001

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by RajoRacer » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:52 pm

I have an original TT cast iron 3 speed in my Gramps' truck - I'll get some photos - without climbing under to verify, one of the running board cross braces was cut & the original sediment bulb has to be moved with a "swing joint" 1/2" pipe connection.

User avatar

HornsRus
Posts: 346
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:07 pm
First Name: Charley
Last Name: Shaver
Location: MO

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by HornsRus » Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:12 pm

here is the bkt i have forsale.i took it off a cast iron warford.charley
Attachments
WARFORD BEKT 002.JPG
WARFORD BEKT 001.JPG

User avatar

RajoRacer
Posts: 1097
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:18 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Tomaso
Location: Longbranch, WA
MTFCA Number: 14972
MTFCI Number: 15411
Board Member Since: 2001

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by RajoRacer » Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:20 pm

Here's a few photos from under the truck - 1st is the cast iron "extension" that holds an additional u-joint, 2nd is the bracket & special frame clamp & 3rd is the plumber's swing joint.

Charlie - do you have the clamps ?
Attachments
extension.JPG
bracket & clamp.JPG
swing joint.JPG

User avatar

HornsRus
Posts: 346
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:07 pm
First Name: Charley
Last Name: Shaver
Location: MO

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by HornsRus » Fri Nov 08, 2019 2:41 pm

NO, BUT LOOKS EASY TO MAKE FROM THE PCS.CHARLEY


Topic author
2nighthawks
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:53 am
First Name: Harold
Last Name: Schwendeman
Location: Seattle
MTFCA Number: 0
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by 2nighthawks » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:26 pm

Great pictures Steve! And from that first picture, I can now visualize what Mark G. was talking about in his post above when he said that without even seeing it, he would bet that my car does NOT have the little cast extension and 2nd U-joint/coupling between planetary and Warford!

Because the Warford in my '26 Touring does not have any kind of support bracket, or cross brace, or whatever you want to call it, as Mark G. said, the Warford absolutely HAS TO BE bolted solid to the rear of the planetary (which is wrong) or it would be unsupported and hanging down at an angle which would be ridiculous! I guess that means that there will be a HUGE amount of work involved to install my Warford properly! Not only will the rear end have to come out in order for that little extension and the 2nd U-joint/coupling to be installed between planetary & Warford, but the drive shaft and drive shaft housing will have to be further shortened the same amount as the length of the added cast iron extension housing which will contain the added U-joint/coupling!

Sheesh! ....I guess if I'd known about all this, I probably wouldn't have even bought that car! Frankly, I guess the easiest and most inexpensive solution would be to just get rid of the Warford and replace the driveshaft and housing with standard stock length components, huh? Oh well,..."live & learn" I guess, huh?

Thank you Steve and Mark and all others that responded to this thread I started, because altho' I don't like the "bad news" I have now found out about, I sure have learned a lot,.....harold


otrcman
Posts: 124
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:25 pm
First Name: Dick
Last Name: Fischer
Location: Arroyo Grande, CA

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by otrcman » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:55 pm

What you have found is exactly what I found on my car. So I exercised the "take it out and put it back to stock" option.

Through that adventure I realized Henry Ford's wisdom in not giving his approval to any of those inline aux transmissions. My understanding is that the only multi-speed option that Mr. Ford approved was the Ruckstell. And now you can see why: it's the only tandem gearbox design that doesn't stress the crankshaft or negatively impact some other feature of the car. And, if it's in good working order, you can't get a Ruckstell out of gear.

User avatar

Henry K. Lee
Posts: 2205
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:09 am
First Name: Henry
Last Name: Lee
Location: South Pittsburg, TN
MTFCA Life Member: YES

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by Henry K. Lee » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:02 pm

You can make a very simple hardened steel shim and it cures the problem. People were doing this in the day even (Great Depression). If the shim is attached correctly, there are no failures. The TT iron case has an input of 13/16" (driveshaft) vs just at 7/8" (normal U-joint output). The extension in front of the cast iron case was to assist in the flex of those loads on the TT's frame and prevent breakage.

All the Best,

Hank


Topic author
2nighthawks
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:53 am
First Name: Harold
Last Name: Schwendeman
Location: Seattle
MTFCA Number: 0
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by 2nighthawks » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:40 pm

Henry - I was just thinking about that, however, I had kind of dismissed the shim thought as it seems to me that somewhere, sometime in the past, I think I remember reading that "the shim thing" was in fact done, but was not too successful. Might be that the success of the shim solution is dependent upon the care in which the shims are made, fitted, and as you said, "attached", and the quality of the shim material used,huh? I gotta' believe it'd be worth a try,....thanks Henry,.....harold

User avatar

Henry K. Lee
Posts: 2205
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:09 am
First Name: Henry
Last Name: Lee
Location: South Pittsburg, TN
MTFCA Life Member: YES

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by Henry K. Lee » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:16 pm

Harold,

A high carbon steel with spring tension works great. I have been doing this for years with no ill effects encountered. By sanding clean the surfaces of both sides, applying an epoxy such as JB Weld or 3M #8115 regular setting time and let it cure for two days. Long file to fit, Done. Just make sure the back has a mount even on a cast aluminum case model. There is a lot of weight and stresses going on.

Glad to Help,

Hank


Topic author
2nighthawks
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:53 am
First Name: Harold
Last Name: Schwendeman
Location: Seattle
MTFCA Number: 0
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by 2nighthawks » Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:49 pm

Henry (Hank) - Kinda' hard to visualize just exactly what you mean but very encouraging to hear that you have a "technique" with some sort of "high carbon spring steel" shims and some way of "bonding" with J.B. Weld that has apparently been very successful for you. I'd sure like to hear more about how you do this but I realize that it's probably a difficult "procedure" to explain. So,....4 thin shims (?),...each bonded with J.B.Weld to each of the four sides of the male member of the U-joint? Thanks so much for letting me know that there ("IS") apparently a way to make this work without starting all over again with additional shortening of the drive shaft & drive shaft housing.

Not sure if anybody else is interested in how you've done this, but I sure am! Thanks again,.....harold

P.S. For some reason, your description "high carbon spring steel" makes me think of the type of steel banding that's used in securing palletized freight items for shipping. Would this work for shims?

User avatar

Henry K. Lee
Posts: 2205
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:09 am
First Name: Henry
Last Name: Lee
Location: South Pittsburg, TN
MTFCA Life Member: YES

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by Henry K. Lee » Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:08 pm

Harold,

Will write up the procedures in the next couple of days to assist you and others. Thank You for the interest.

All the Best,

Hank


Topic author
2nighthawks
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:53 am
First Name: Harold
Last Name: Schwendeman
Location: Seattle
MTFCA Number: 0
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by 2nighthawks » Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:39 pm

Hank - Thank you so much for following along in this thread that I started in regard to my "26 Touring and what now appears to me to have been an "improper" Warford installation by the previous owner. As you say, details of your Warford "installation method" just may be of great interest to others as well as perhaps one of the most helpful of the many things I've learned on this fantastic forum that I've been participating in for quite a few years now! Can't tell you how much I appreciate your willingness to take the time and effort to share your knowledge & experience with all of us, but then, that's what this forum is all about, right? In the meantime,....anxiously awaiting your detailed advice, help and "guidance", .....harold


Topic author
2nighthawks
Posts: 134
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:53 am
First Name: Harold
Last Name: Schwendeman
Location: Seattle
MTFCA Number: 0
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by 2nighthawks » Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:54 am

Hank - I am presently studying your two Nov. 11 forum postings,...the one on building the rear mount for the Warford and the other on adapting the TT Warford transmission to the Model T car. Your step-by-step instructions and excellent photos are tremendous encouragement and help to me and I can't thank you enough for taking the time and effort to do this! Weather permitting, probably next Spring, I will be dropping the rear end of my '26 touring and removing the 3-speed iron case Warford to see if the "original installer" made any attempt to "shim" the slightly smaller Warford input shaft to properly fit the 1/8" larger Model T planetary output shaft, however, I am sure that he installed the Warford with no shims, because as you say,...that will work, but not for very long. In which case, now, thanks to you Hank, I have a very good idea how to accomplish this, wheras before, I hadn't the slightest idea how to proceed with this whole project. Thanks again so much Hank,....not only for the help, but you have provided an excellent example of how this forum can and should work,.....harold

User avatar

Henry K. Lee
Posts: 2205
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:09 am
First Name: Henry
Last Name: Lee
Location: South Pittsburg, TN
MTFCA Life Member: YES

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by Henry K. Lee » Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:00 am

A Big Thank You Harold!

I really do enjoy helping another person in such a well organized club. Showing what we know, experiences, etc is what keeps the club strong. Over the years, this is the only club I have belong to with all the right stuff. Very proud to call myself a member.

We need to have our fun and therapy!

All the Very Best to All,

Humbled Hank


mtntee20
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:51 pm
First Name: Terry & Sharon
Last Name: Miller
Location: Westminster, CO
MTFCA Number: 32583
Board Member Since: 2017

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by mtntee20 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:21 am

IF anyone is looking for the Warford extension/U-joint housing, I have some for sale. They have been sandblasted and painted.

PM me if interested.

Good Luck,
Terry


Beaver1054
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:38 pm
First Name: Hector
Last Name: ESTEVES
Location: Texas
Board Member Since: 2001

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by Beaver1054 » Sun Nov 17, 2019 4:12 pm

Hello,
wanted to get opinions on this support for the Warford.
I took a model T front leaf spring and straitened it out.
Then welded two cross tabs on each end.
My plan is to support each end with four small springs, two above and two below each end.
The Warford has two existing holes on the case to bolt the center of the leaf spring to.
I figure the leaf spring and the small coil springs on each end would be sufficient.
Can I get some feedback on this idea?
Thanks!!
Attachments
1554477301879.jpg
1554477301879.jpg (32.88 KiB) Viewed 1235 times

User avatar

Henry K. Lee
Posts: 2205
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:09 am
First Name: Henry
Last Name: Lee
Location: South Pittsburg, TN
MTFCA Life Member: YES

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by Henry K. Lee » Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:25 pm

Steve I applaud your attempt!

The problem is you must hold it in a horizontal plane with no up and down motion or damage to the pan, pan ears, etc. will occur. A pinch plate on the top of the bottom C of the frame rail or a vertical attachment via wooden block inside of channel with bolts. The leaf spring is really not a good choice as it still as flex to it. Channel iron has its own build in strength properties.

Hope this Helps,

All the Best Too,

Hank


Beaver1054
Posts: 38
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:38 pm
First Name: Hector
Last Name: ESTEVES
Location: Texas
Board Member Since: 2001

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by Beaver1054 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:47 am

Thanks Hank,
My idea was to support the weight without restricting the natural flex of the frame.
I believe the Warford needs to move with the engine and oil pan to prevent fatigue cracks.
My idea was that the horizontal flat stock would support the weight while the 4 independent springs would allow
a twisting motion for the Warford and frame. Like the 4 shocks on a car.
Thanks for your input. I'll re-think my design


d stroud
Posts: 729
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:45 am
First Name: David
Last Name: Stroud
Location: Mound City, MO. 64470
Board Member Since: 2011

Re: Warford Support Bracket ?

Post by d stroud » Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:08 am

However you make or buy a support for ANY auxiliary transmission that mounts on the back of a T or TT transmission (and ALL of them should have a support, no matter what they are made of), DO NOT drill any holes in the frame to mount the support, it is NOT necessary, just make a clamp style mount, VERY easy to do. Dave
1925 mostly original coupe.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic